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devilhand

 

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Guitar making today better than ever? 
A great interview with David Russell about the tone production, John Gilbert and Matthias Dammann guitars. At 3:46-4:15, he says guitar making has improved so much today in comparison to Segovia days. Is it true? If its true, why folks are crazy about vintage guitars? They're overpriced? If not, what makes old guitars with famous labels so special?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 10:24:47
 
gerundino63

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
I think some people are looking for a specific sound.

Do you still find the sound of the blanca Paco de Lucia played on the reording from la fabulosa flamenca?
Or even the very dry sounding Negra from Paco de Lucia?
Or the Gerundino Paco Peña played on early recordings?

I think the taste is different now, but not necessary better....I still have a Gerundino from 1967, it is very dry and percussive, never found a guitar simmilar as that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 11:28:45
 
Echi

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
Well, it's a good question.
First of all I think the classical guitars developed much more than the flamenco ones: loudness is very important for whoever plays in ensemble and guitar is comparatively less loud than many orchestra instruments.
Russel always played guitars quite loud and advanced for the time: Gilbert, Dammann, O'Leary etc.
In the meantime half of the market of hand made guitars is looking to the past, reproducing the models of Hauser or Torres.
The improvement of the amplifying systems fact fills the gap in terms of volume.

2nd aspect is that all the makers try to evolve their model: progress is a constant.
Gerundino or Reyes or Conde from the sixties are different from the most recent ones.

3rd aspect is that also the flamenco guitars developed towards a more powerful tool. If not Paco would have played a Santos, Amigo a Barbero etc.
in fact I tend to like the guitars made by the major makers in the eighties and I don't believe it's just by coincidence.

Nowadays many makers make just excellent guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 13:23:43
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to gerundino63) 
quote:


I think some people are looking for a specific sound.


I believe this statement to be correct, as many well built guitars today have different voices, and I've always believed that it's the voice that compels us.

And this difference is what puts food on the table for many guitar builders.

To create a vowel tone in a guitar is not an easy task but for those who do, it speaks for their prosperity.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 15:31:38
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Echi) 
quote:

Nowadays many makers make just excellent guitars.

Thats a statement.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 18:45:57
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to gerundino63) 
quote:

I still have a Gerundino from 1967, it is very dry and percussive, never found a guitar simmilar as that.

I think some of us are a little biased. Maybe because they own some historical instrument?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 18:48:20
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
he says guitar making has improved so much today in comparison to Segovia days. Is it true? If its true, why are folks crazy about vintage guitars?.............'


I think one reason is that the guitars have developed their personal voice with age, and there is no way to develop this display of tone without the age factor. In other words, age can be the purifier of sound that no guitar right off the bench can replicate. Age will always be helpful, as it changes things.

So it is in the hands of the builder to know when to stop the tuning and allow age to finish the instrument.

I try and tune the guitar right on the cusp without going over the edge and then allow age to gain more maturity. It takes a certain amount of experience to gain feeling for it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 19:11:15
 
gerundino63

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

I think some of us are a little biased. Maybe because they own some historical instrument?


I did’t mean to say the old Gerundino is better, only very dry and percussive. And that I never found a guitar that was similar dry and percussive.
In fact, if I would only keep one guitar, I would keep my Anders Eliasson. I prefer that sound more.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2020 19:38:11
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

I think one reason is that the guitars have developed their personal voice with age, and there is no way to develop this display of tone without the age factor. In other words, age can be the purifier of sound that no guitar right off the bench can replicate. Age will always be helpful, as it changes things.

If age influences the sound or tone quality over time and makes it a variable, I wonder if the sound development over time is predictable or not. Can we say for example, the guitar will sound always better and better the older it gets no matter which type of wood?

quote:

So it is in the hands of the builder to know when to stop the tuning and allow age to finish the instrument.

What do you mean by tuning? Small adjustments before you finish making guitar?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 7:05:39
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to gerundino63) 
quote:


I did’t mean to say the old Gerundino is better, only very dry and percussive

I always thought its easier to make a guitar with a similar tone character (dry and percussive) than a guitar with characteristics like a warm tone, a long sustain and rich in overtones.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 7:26:05
 
Echi

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
Age and a proper playing improve the guitar but the other side of the story is that often old flamenco guitars are very beaten up.

Another good reason for an old flamenco Guitar is for certain caratteristics you can’t find in new instruments.
Primarily a good guitar comes from the art of a good luthier and some are just better than others.
Manuel Reyes in his best time had knowledge, skills and materials a new fellow has not. Same you can say for Romanillos or Arcangel.
As I wrote in a different post I happen to own an 81 Ramirez guitar which used to belong to Manuel Cano; there are few repairs but it’s just better than any new Ramirez I tried.

Ramirez of a certain period or Conde or Sanchis, are often better than new ones. I can be wrong about the reasons but I suppose the human factor has a good incidence: better makers.
Gerundino hijo makes very good guitars for the bucks and quite similar to his father’s but certain old good Gerundinas have something you can’t find anywhere and I could say the same for many other makers like Manuel Bellido, Manzanero etc.

Or it can be just a different way to build: old Barba guitars used to be more Condish and often with cedar top; new ones are good guitars also but just different.
I for one like my old Condes much more than the new ones, both soundwise and as a thing in itself. In case you look for such a kind of guitar you have no choice but the 2nd hand market.

Having said that, nowadays you may find excellent flamenco guitars in the same league and not only in Spain.
Madrid and Granada are still the places with more know how imho.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 7:39:35
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
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From: The Netherlands

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

I always thought its easier to make a guitar with a similar tone character (dry and percussive) than a guitar with characteristics like a warm tone, a long sustain and rich in overtones.


I do not know what is easier, this sounds more like a classical guitar.

Ever listened to old recordings from Paco Peña? Or Paco de Lucia? Both Blanca’s, but even the Negra from Paco de Lucia sounds dry and percussive to me. The Negra a little less but stil very dry in my ears.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 8:27:38
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to gerundino63) 
quote:

I do not know what is easier, this sounds more like a classical guitar.

Be aware that my opinion is an unqualified one. So please take it with a grain of salt. What I tried to say was one cant get a negra sound out of blanca. But the opposite can be possible. I saw it in a video where a luthier put a tape across the strings at the bridge to make a blanca sound more old school flamenco. I somehow believe it can also work on a negra or any other classical guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 10:07:08
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Echi) 
quote:

Madrid and Granada are still the places with more know how imho.

What about guitars from the triangle Sevilla, Jerez and Cadiz?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 10:14:24
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
The original quote was about guitars of the ‘Segovia days’. Taken literally this would be guitars from his first performance in Granada as a 16 year old in 1909 (free gift of Benito Ferrer guitar?) through 1912 Manuel Ramirez built by Santos, 1937 Hauser, 1961 Jose Ramirez III built by Paulino Bernabe with many other free gifts in between and after. Luthiers were trying to keep up with the demands imposed by Segovia’s development of the classical guitar repertoire. Perhaps David Russell had the 1961 and subsequent Ramirez guitars in mind. These guitars which were so popular at the time do seem to have gone out of fashion.

I played on the same programme (classical regional and flamenco dance) as David Russell between 1974 and 1979. I didn’t play ‘with’ him.Typically we had piano, cello, classical guitar, 2-3 flamenco guitars, singer and 3-8 dancers. We were unamplified and the flamenco guitarists had to provide a (loud as possible) rhythm with nothing fancy, to be heard over the jaleo. I was the loudest of the lot with my 1968 cedar Ramirez but I envied some of the other players with Conde and Manuel de la Chica guitars.

David was a student at the Royal Academy at first and was going through the prize winning phase of his life. One of the prizes (I think the Tarrega) was a Ramirez from one of a number that had been presented to Segovia to choose from. I remember be offered me the chance of playing it – I was scared stiff that I might damage it so I just dragged my thumb across the strings and played a few arpeggios before handing it back. The husband of the principal dancer said how much nicer this guitar sounded than mine. He didn’t understand what flamenco guitarists needed out of a guitar. The guitar had a curved fingerboard. In my brief encounter I found it uncomfortable.

The interview indicates a lifelong search for a wonderful guitar with the recognition that if you play different kinds of music in a variety of venues you always have to compromise and work hard to make the guitar do what you want. I think that we have to do that with flamenco guitars to some extent. With amplification and effects the flamenco guitarist can take a guitar that is nice to play at home and make it do what is required in all kinds of other settings. As an example watch/listen to Tomatito play his Reyes and then his c1990 Manuel Bellido in the 63 Festival International de Música y Danza de Granada. We know that these are quite different guitars but …..

Of the 3 best guitars I have owned, 1 was new and 2 were older and bought secondhand at bargain prices. That's just the way it is. Refreshingly having a lot of money doesn't give automatic access to the purchase of a great guitar.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 11:20:47
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
I’ll be the odd man out and say that the oldest and youngest guitars I ever played back to back, were almost indistinguishable in terms of sound. Only looks and feel and these things had less to do with age. So I say very little has changed since A. Torres.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 15:06:18
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Only looks and feel and these things had less to do with age. So I say very little has changed since A. Torres. ...............'


You could be right since one of my students made a Reyes replica that sounded just like a 1932 Santos I inspected for appraisal.

His guitar was a one of a kind but it had the tone and articulation of the Santos. Go figure. I think Robert Guthrie owns that guitar now.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 16:10:50
 
yourwhathurts69

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
My sense is that today, luthiers have more precise and specialized tools and highly controlled building environments that would lead to greater accuracy and consistency in building, and assuming they have access to the same quality of wood, new guitars should be consistently better than guitars of the past.

Having said that, the best guitars I've played have all been old and have shown signs of significant use (perhaps better described as abuse). Could it be that the guitars sounded better because they had been played a ton, or were they played a ton because they've always sounded better...?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2020 22:40:51
 
Echi

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
I don’t agree with the statement of Ricardo in this case. My old Condes are definitely not sounding like new ones because they are radically different. Of course each brand/maker try to preserve his trademark tone but fo sound the same is different.
I still own a 74 Bellido and for a while I also had a 2001.
In this case the hand of the maker and the same plan/ size made the 2 guitars much similar. Even so, I preferred one over the other.

I don’t think age makes miracles either even though with age it’s true that the wood gets slightly lighter and more resonant.

Coming back to Russel, he explains quite well what he means and with regard with the classical guitars he has a point.
He says the guitars made nowadays by top luthiers are more balanced, with less or no weak notes, louder in other words more reliable than guitars made in the seventies.
The classical guitar world is much bigger and spread than flamenco and opened to innovations like lattice and double tops. Flamenco is more routed to tradition.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2020 9:10:48
 
johnguitar

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
As always I think we need to distinguish between guitars made by one professional and those made in factories. I won't address the professionally made ones because I love the old masters but at the same time I like to think that some of us are capturing that essence. Also I think that we might value consistency more than the old guys did.

As for factory guitars I think that the advent of very specialized machinery in China and Valencia has taken the guitars out of the hands of the workers and there may very well be a significant drop in quality now. And yes, I mean the famous name ones that claim to be handmade.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2020 12:17:38
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Echi) 
quote:

As for factory guitars I think that the advent of very specialized machinery in China and Valencia has taken the guitars out of the hands of the workers and there may very well be a significant drop in quality now. And yes, I mean the famous name ones that claim to be handmade.


Thanks John, your point is well made. I can't speak for all factory made guitars but the Adalid models are being effected by his venture into my fine tuning techniques that I showed to him while Manuel visited my shop for a few days; 2 years in a row.

I gathered that Manuel was very motivated to improve his tonal aspects with all of his models. He conveyed to me that it was time for him to build the very best guitar he could, then pass that knowledge on to his experienced workmen.

No doubt this was motivated by competition among other factories that build many guitars a year; Manuel's out put for the Esteve factory is about 12,000 guitars a year. And the last time we e-mailed he was very concerned about putting his name on the Adalid guitars unless they were the very best.

Perhaps this is his reason for contacting me about my fine tuning techniques. But regardless of the reason, it impressed me as his wanting to build the very best and he proved this by reaching out to other systems of approach to improve sound.

He already has fine cosmetics and the woman French polisher is better than what I can do. Well, maybe just as good :-)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2020 17:22:05
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Ricardo) 
A couple of years ago I spent an afternoon at Richard and Marshall Brune's workshop is Evanston, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. They have now moved further north. That afternoon we played many, if not most of the instruments in Brune's collection.

There were a number of really wonderful guitars, some of them famous like Ramon Montoya's. But one stood out as distinctive. I believe it was a Barbero, but I didn't take notes.

It was easily the most used looking instrument of the group. It wasn't badly beaten up, and had no visible cracks, but the French polish was very worn, and the instrument had a dirty look. I'm sure that if it could have been cleaned up better, Bruné would have done it. He said that as far as thousands of hours of playing, it was clearly the champion.

I would describe its distinctive character as "controlled looseness." Loose because it was easy to play. The initial movement of the strings by the right hand was easy to cause. But it wasn't too loose, hence "controlled."

I have played guitars that I thought were too loose. Spaniards would say their pulsacion was soft. Some were very good guitars. I think of a '73 Reyes that belonged to a friend. He loved it and could play it well. I preferred my '67 Ramirez. Its stiffer (but not too stiff) pulsacion better suited my right hand. Its a matter of one's personal taste, and physical characteristics. I have strong nails and big hands.

Back to Brune's guitar. Its pulsacion was unique in my experience. The strings moved easily under the right hand, but they weren't too loose. If you wanted to play fast, the string was always back in place when you wanted to pluck it again.

The sound of the guitar was magnificent. It wasn't shrill but it had plenty of treble edge and percussion in rasgueados. The tone was rich and full with a "gutty" midrange on each note. I loved the instrument right off, and Bruné seemed to think it was one of the best in his collection.

Not only has Bruné made a lot of guitars, he's seen a lot of them, and he played professionally at Manolo Caracol's tablao in Mexico City. For this instrument age was certainly a factor, but the amount it had been played figured strongly in Brune's diagnosis. Whatever the reason was, it stood out in a collection of outstanding instruments.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2020 20:22:27
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

I believe it was a Barbero, but I didn't take notes.

It was easily the most used looking instrument of the group. It wasn't badly beaten up, and had no visible cracks, but the French polish was very worn, and the instrument had a dirty look. I'm sure that if it could have been cleaned up better, Bruné would have done it. He said that as far as thousands of hours of playing, it was clearly the champion.


Years ago Elario Lozano and I visited Richards shop in Evanston Illinois for a couple of days and were introduced to his fine collection of guitars. I played the Barbero guitar but the 1963 Manuel de la Chica was a guitar I thought was made for me, as it did everything I told it to.

If I had the money, I would have bought that puppy!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2020 20:02:15
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to RobJe) 
quote:

The interview indicates a lifelong search for a wonderful guitar with the recognition that if you play different kinds of music in a variety of venues you always have to compromise and work hard to make the guitar do what you want.

David Russell is sooo advanced that he needs a guitar that brings out the best in him. At 8:00-8:40, he gives the best answer to the question How do you know if you have outgrown your instrument?
A beginner adjusts to the instrument because his technique and playing still have to be developed. He's outgrown his instrument when the instrument can't bring out the best in him. It's time for a better guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2020 21:01:01
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

It's time for a better guitar.


I've said this to myself so many times …….
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2020 21:19:52
 
Echi

 

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
I did it too, I admit

Recently 2nd hand market of flamenco guitars became more expensive than before and quite crazy. Online website are often unreasonable.

Barbero, De la Chica etc. are masters and in a different league.
I don't think ageing is the first cause of their tone though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2020 8:43:36
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

He's outgrown his instrument when the instrument can't bring out the best in him. It's time for a better guitar.


On the surface this makes perfect sense. However, I have had the luxury to be involved in a long term experiment in this regard. My very first cheap classical guitar, a cheap Nagoya (Ramirez knock off), was my “beginner” guitar. I didn’t know much how to play it at 12 years old, but I loved it and composed my first songs on it and learned picking techniques, chords etc. I sold it when I was in college studying classical guitar and transitioning to flamenco, 25 years ago opting to use instead my dad’s 1971 Ramirez 1A. By shear coincidence I was able to re-acquire that guitar last year. Wow, what an instrument! My initial strumming of it was a shock to the system. It’s my main practice guitar around the house, it sounds super flamenco. All I did was put a tap plate and lower the bridge a hair.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 16:54:56
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I sold it when I was in college studying classical guitar and transitioning to flamenco

Seems like you sold it without knowing that guitar sounds flamenco. If you had kept that guitar for 2 or 3 more years, you would never have sold it.
Btw, a great story with a happy ending. There's a truth in this sentence: You always meet twice in life.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 22:40:55
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to devilhand) 
I know what I like in a guitar but I have difficulty in giving reasons for my preference. This is ‘tacit knowledge’ – I know more than can tell.

The challenge is for me (and everyone else) to be a little more explicit. In the interests of making some progress I have taken all our terms in this one thread and tried to classify them.

About qualities of sound
tone - gutty" midrange – shrill – rich and full – sound – dry – percussive – voice – vowel tone - rich in overtone - negra sound - old school flamenco - more resonant - sounds flamenco – more balanced (also under ‘volume’)

About volume
more powerful - long sustain - louder - more balanced (also under ’sound’)

About touch and feel
pulsación – soft – hard – loose – stiff – stiffer - controlled looseness - strings moved easily under the right hand - string was always back in place when you wanted to pluck it again

Unclassified
Condish - gone out of fashion -

Can anyone help me make further progress?

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 14:48:12
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Guitar making today better than ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

I believe it was a Barbero, but I didn't take notes.

It was easily the most used looking instrument of the group. It wasn't badly beaten up, and had no visible cracks, but the French polish was very worn, and the instrument had a dirty look. I'm sure that if it could have been cleaned up better, Bruné would have done it. He said that as far as thousands of hours of playing, it was clearly the champion.


Years ago Elario Lozano and I visited Richards shop in Evanston Illinois for a couple of days and were introduced to his fine collection of guitars. I played the Barbero guitar but the 1963 Manuel de la Chica was a guitar I thought was made for me, as it did everything I told it to.

If I had the money, I would have bought that puppy!


As often, I wasn't perfectly clear. I only meant to say the guitar was distinctive, not that I liked it the best of Brune's collection. It would take me much longer than a few minute's playing to decide among a group of great guitars.

In fact I have guitars that I have owned and played for 20 years, which I think are great guitars, and which I can't decide whether I like one better than the other.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 5:39:56
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