Differences in cypress and spruce

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Differences in cypress and spruce

I posted that I will be building a flamenco, but as I do more research and shopping, I see so many references and specs to the different woods, so I'm trying to get a better picture of what to use:

CYPRESS BACK AND SIDES:
Spanish: Most expensive, but is desirable.
Monterey: Comes in a 'kit', but I don't care for the grains and colors. Sound is good, tho.
Alaskan Cypress/Alaskan Yellow Cedar: Has anyone used, and their thoughts?? It's the least expensive, by far.

SPRUCE TOPS:
Carpathian : Anyone know anything about this? An eBay seller claims it's the "new stuff".
European: Again, most used and most expensive.
Englemann: Tom Blackshear uses, but is supposed to be softer - like cedar.
Bearclaw Sitka: I hear this wood is very loud as a top. Thoughts for a flamenco??

Any help or feedback with great thanks!

Ramón

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 22:32:32

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

I don't build but I can speak to the tone of some of the woods in question due to my guitar being made of them.
I have a bear claw sitka spruce top with Canadian Cypress/Alaskan Yellow Cedar sides and back. Don't be fooled by the term "Alaskan Yellow Cedar" as it does not look nor sound like the type of cedar used for classical tops.

I'm not sure if sitka spruce is particularly loud as a top or if it's how the guitar was built and braced (someone with knowledge in this area should chime in right about here). I CAN say that my guitar is VERY loud, far more than you'd expect and even more so after a couple of years of being played (my guitar was new when I got it). The tone of my guitar is very sharp, lots of punch to it and a very short sustain (again, I don't know if these are qualities of the wood or the result of the guitar's construction - I suspect the later). All in all it's a great guitar, especially now that it's "broken in". I should say that the top, sides and back are all very thin and perhaps are so because the woods are quite hard and allow for planing to a thin thickness. This may also be the reason for the volume the guitar has.

- Jamey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 3:20:12

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Lately about 25% of my production is in flamencos and although I usually make a cypress with a spruce top I have used other woods. One of the ones I made last year was with a very stiff Sitka top and the sound was excellent. You can hear it on my webpage on the page with the photos. I see no problem there. The carpathian spruce I have seen is quite heavy so that is definitely not good for flamencos. As for Englemann many guitar makers use it for flamenco and classical and as long as it has the same qualities as the European Spruce (stiffness, properly cut) it should be fine. I have never used any other cypress than the mediteranean variety but I can say that I would never use Alaskan because I don't like the density of it. Good luck with the guitar.

John Ray
http://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 7:16:36

Guest

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

To say it short:

I like good spruce. I´ve build with Sitka (from John) and it sounds very nice. The important thing with top wood is that it´s well cut and has a good weight/stifness ratio. If that´s the case it will sound. I mostly build with euro spruce from Germany, but it´s because it´s what my clients want and because it´s relatively cheap here. (I said relatively

)

My advice is to use something standard, because it makes it easyer to compare with other guitars.

I´m building a guitar with CDN Cypress at the moment (a peghead) I like the density of the wood a lot. It´s extremely narrow grained and 100% quatersawn and I find that the density is like very good med. cypress.
I can say how it sounds in a couple of month

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 7:28:27

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Much thanks to all for feedback. A couple of questions:

Jamey: Do you have a picture you can E or post with the Bearclaw Sitka Spruce top? I see this used (and in demand) by acoustic guitar builders, but haven't seen used for flamenco:

http://www.fineguitarconsultants.com/lucky12.htm

I inquired into a purchase of a top from these guys, as I live right by the writer/builder, but they won't sell one.

John & Anders: Thank you for input from respected, professional builders. However, I'm not sure if there is a conflict in your opinions, or if it's just clarification of woods?

John said: "I can say that I would never use Alaskan because I don't like the density of it."
(Canadian Cypress/Alaskan Yellow Cedar - and it's odd. In http://lmii.com 's catalogue (Luthier's Mercantile) it's both a cypress AND a cedar?!) [chamaecyparis nootkatensis]

Where Anders IS using Canadian for the back and sides. LMII says it has been used with success for flamencos, too.

And then LMII claims (for tops) Adirondack (Red) Spruce (picea rubens) to be quite a nice choice! Anyone ever use?

Anyway, here, Spanish Cypress back and sides are $150 vs. $47.00 for Canadian (but I LOVE the smell of Spanish Cypress inside the guitar)!! And a Master Grade Sitka top is $74.00 vs. $145.00 for German.

I will be building from a Manuel Reyes plan by Tom Blackshear, who used Englemann Spruce for his top. (I understand Englemann to be much softer, though).

It isn't the money, but as a first guitar, I'm just curious as to my choices, differences, sounds and tones (yes, I know, bracing, patterns, etc., make up for a lot), but I try to research as much as I can before I just spend $$ and dive in.

The builder that will help me chooses Spanish and German, but I wanted to investigate other possibilities - or just use The Kiss Principle?? (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Thanks for the help! Not trying to sound "all over the board" - just trying to get a better understanding of woods, tones, experiences, choices, etc.

Ramón

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 17:21:25

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramón)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 15:15:18

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Hi Sendero,

Thanks for the input from experience, but I think I do understand the big picture - I just may not be able to execute it! What does help is that I am being coached by a builder who who is turning out very nice guitars, have read all the books and web stuff I can on the subject, and have access to every tool, jig, scraper, etc., plus the builder's expertise.

I know how critical all the components can be, have talked briefly with Tom Blackshear, and will pay close attention to detail and the plans. I expect to go slow, take as long as it takes, and do as good a job as I can. (When I read about putting salt on a finger to tune a brace, I realize what I'm up against). But given the Italian-level finish in interior boatworks I was trained to execute, I feel like I have somewhat of an edge over someone who just 'decides to build a guitar'. I am buying each piece individual, and will build 'from scratch'.

I DO realize so much of this is just plain years of experience, a touch of magic, etc., that makes it all come together. I don't expect to build a Reyes - but I am trying to gain some insight into woods and builder's opinions before I buy the basic foundation of the guitar - back and sides, and the top.

Question for you: (I will also ask my friend the builder here, too), but what do you mean by "if it responds well to these frequencies"...? What sound/tone/effect am I seeking here? I've seen this mentioned, but not sure exactly what it is I'm seeking when I hold a fork against it??

Thanks for the info! Love having this forum to gain knowledge.

R

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 17:24:51

Guest

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

There are many ways of working a guitar. Some use machines that messure frequencies. (You can read Smirnoffs book if you feel like a deeper insight into this) and some work purely intuitive. The intuition is an extremely important source and is what I trust the most. It´s a difficult thing to describe and it has a problem. You have to be mentally aware in order to be capable of using it. In my own case it has another problem, which is mental, that I cannot connect with my intuition for a long time. It gets tired, and I cant filter out everyday thoughts like what am I going to eat etc. And it makes judgement muddy. The answer is to work slowly and prepare one self mentally. As a concrete example: Here in Spain you cannot buy wood online, because you never know what they send you. You have to go and pick yourself or wait until they come to Granada with a truck, so that you can pick there. I´ve learned to just buy some 6 - 8 pieces of each part of the guitar (soundboard, neck etc). If I choose to buy more, my judgement gets fuzzy and I come home with things I dont wanna work. Another example: When I do the final thickness of the soundboard or the bracing, I never finish in one day. I like to see the result from another days view. Touch the thing and listen to its sound tells me more than thousand words and messures. I prefer that my soundboards sing well than that they have a certain frequency!!!! that the different tones of the piece work together. I take note of the frequency because it helps me in a global point of view but I never rely on ONE frequency as a final judgement. The components of a guitar have to work together in an organic way.

As a final thing. I generally dont buy wood from US/Canada because its to expensive, but I bought a package of 6 soundboards and 3 CDN cypress from Acoustic woods in British Colombia. That was really impressive. The 6 AAA Engelmann soundboards were all AAA+ and so equal that I can bookmatch whatever piece with another and it´s work. Good Engelmann is VERY stiff and compares to very good euro spruce. The CDN Cypress was absolutely TOP quality. It doesn´t get any better

Enough babling
Anders

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2006 7:35:32

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Gracias, Anders...

As I said to Sendero, while I realize that while I have a lot of wood-experience, it has never crossed over into what I'm doing here, as so much is based on just experience and 'feel'....and that ol' Black Magic!

And as I said, for me, LMII is out of Master German spruce right now, at $150, but has Spanish Cypress at $150 for the back and sides. I was investigating other possible choices that would give me great results (and save a few $$, perhaps) - as far as wood choices - while the rest will just be a combination of skill, going slow, patience, following directions, gut feeling, help from Robert Hein (invaluable).....LUCK....

.....and all the help here! But I think it will be fun and interesting - and probably maddening at times, but....!

Thanks everyone. I look forward to more insight and thoughts!

Ramón

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2006 15:30:19

Guest

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Ramon.
There´s no reason for buying master grade spruce. The AAA engelman tops that I bought from Acoustic woods. (35$ a piece) are absolutely as good as it gets.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2006 18:00:07

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Thanks again, Anders....

I will ring them and ask for a gem!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2006 0:47:37

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramón)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2006 12:37:54

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Hey Sam,

Thanks for more input....

The luthier, Robert Hein, has all the jigs, molds, benders...He's got a jig to build bridges, etc, so I may start there as a small, 'dive-in' project. (I just re-did a peghead Negra. Shaved the pegs, cut them down, re-tapered the holes slightly. Bob taught me a lot just in that (making a simple jig for square cuts and drilling), and now the pegs work nearly as good as machines. They hold instantly, and turn like a dream...Was excited how good they work!

I'm planning Spanish cypress back and sides, probably a Canadian spruce (recommended by Anders) top.

I will brace how and with what is on the plans (slowly and carefully) I am getting for the Reyes by Tom Blackshear, who has already taken the time to answer quite a few questions for me. (Thanks, Tom!)

Getting a Russian rosette from Schramm:

http://www.schrammguitars.com/rr~10.jpg
or
http://www.schrammguitars.com/rr~5.jpg

No decision yet. They are a bit pricy, but I saw one in person and they are incredible!

Bindings, bridge, and headplate (bookmatched halves on the plate...kind of a cool look) will be Macassar ebony, dark, but with nice offset colors. African ebony fingerboard, etc.... And of course, pegs. No other choice, to me, and I may use my peghed.com pegs with the ebony buttons.

I am kicking around a thin, waterbased lacquer finish for everything but the top, which I'd French. I think this would have little effect on sound, but would prove more useful as my travel companion, I sit above the ocean here and play, etc... Not having to worry so much about it, and it IS a flamenco. Unlike classical or other instruments, we're like the Rugby players of the music world!

So dems' da' plans... I'm hesitant because of the time involved - when I could practice - but I figured I would just take breaks and play to clear my head, and I have always wanted to do this. Now having access to a guitar-building workshop and tutoring makes this much less daunting!

Thanks again,

Ramón

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2006 18:38:35

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Ramón, sorry for missing your request for a photo above. Here's a photo that shows the bear claw in the sitka spruce. It's a little difficult to see due to the deep staining and the lighting/angle of the camera. If you want, I can try to take another one (this is an older photo I had from about a year ago). Ignore the bad adhesive job on the tap plate.

- Jamey

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2006 23:54:11

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Differences in cypress and spruce (in reply to Ramón)

Thanks...I like that Bearclaw pattern. I also saw a Postigo that a guy here got that was a very light orange. Was really quite nice. Maybe I can get a shot of it one day and post.

I have one Jose Luis Postigo peghead that is (actually for sale) the darker orange, but as a first-finish effort, I'm not sure if I should undertake. Probably safer to stick to a clear.

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 15:04:57