Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





4th annual Guitar making competition   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

4th annual Guitar making competition 

I am pleased that Vicente Coves continues to organize this event as it has given me the opportunity to meet some interesting makers and players and of course to hear some great concerts. If you are interested in participating in the competition here is all of the information. Rules

_____________________________

John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2020 7:09:31
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to johnguitar

Thanks for the notice, John.

Some thoughts about this event....

First off, full disclosure. I participated in the competition last year. The classical guitar I entered was representative of the work I typically do and, although it was not constructed with the competition in mind, as all of my guitars are 100% handcrafted by me and this one was traditionally fan braced, it met the entry criteria. It placed pretty well exactly where I expected it would, which was it made it past the first round, where half the guitars were eliminated, placed in the second, and was not presented amongst the third (final) round of five instruments. Based on what I saw when I was there, I felt it was judged fairly.

For the benefit of anyone who is considering entering, here are a few observations from last year that may help in the preparation for the competition:

- The quality of entrants was high, and the workmanship consistently so. If I could offer one word of advice, above all, it’s to ensure the setup of the guitar is beyond reproach. During the presentations, the demonstrator will focus on any weaknesses in this regard and I think a lot of the instruments that didn’t make it past the first round were eliminated, at least in part, due to issues with their setups. So, be mindful of the potential effects of changes in climate if you’re travelling across continents, as a poor setup can prove to be toxic.
- The competition venue was moved to another area of town on short notice. Not good for those who had booked lodging near the original location. The take-away here is to make sure to book accommodations that have a forgiving cancellation policy, as it may be prudent to do a last minute switch. Granada is very much a “walking city”, and the temperature will be hovering just below 40C, so having accommodations close to the event is not a bad idea.
- The entrants are responsible for their instruments at all times. While this may seem reasonable, it is typically 38C outside at lunchtime and hauling an instrument from an air conditioned environment into the heat and then back again into the cold was not so much fun for newcomers to the city, most of whom had no idea where to go for lunch. Best advice I can give about that is, if you can’t secure accommodation near the venue where you can store your instrument during lunch, then do a restaurant prowl in the days before the competition so you have an idea of places you can quickly go to and hang out inside (or out of the sun) for a couple of hours.
- The 15 minute pre-trial interviews were extremely short and hurried. For many, this was to be the only contact they were to ever have with the organizers of the event. It comes across like a job interview, so be prepared.
- Finally, and this may seem obvious, but build a competition instrument. While the rules state that GSI will buy instruments at fixed prices from the winners, there is no obligation to sell them the instrument that was entered. So, pull out the stops and build one worth more than the prize value. And then, if anyone wants to buy the guitar after you win, they can pay you what it’s worth. I have a feeling a maker may prefer to keep a winning instrument as something to display to potential customers or just as a treasured momento, however.

Now, for a couple of suggestions to the organizers:

- There was absolutely no feedback formally provided to the contestants. It would not be difficult to provide a written checklist or brief summary to the entrants so they could understand the areas where it was felt their instrument could be improved. Bad set-up, finish issues, tonal issues? To my opinion, the complete lack of feedback is reason enough for many to avoid this competition. It is my largest criticism. And if feedback is provided informally to some, then in the interest of fairness it goes without question that it should be provided to all.
- The contestant interviews were very brief. If one hour proved to be too taxing in previous years, perhaps a half hour would have been a reasonable compromise? After all, some contestants had travelled over 15,000km in support of the competition and, in light of that, the 15 minute provision for interviews was quite lean.
- A simple meet and greet for the makers would be a nice touch. If there are concerns about impartiality or time constraints amongst the judges and organizers, there’s really no need for them to attend the event in any significant capacity. A 25€ addition to the entrance fee could fund booking a room in a local taberna for some beverages and Tapas. An additional admission fee for any spouse or friends who wish to accompanying a maker could be levied. Simple, yet it would go a long way to show the makers that their presence is appreciated. Heck, if I happen to be in town during the event I’ll even offer to organize it.
- Last year, the competition was held in a municipal hall that had armed security at the entrance. Would it have been such a stretch to simply lock the door of the contest room during the lunch break so the contestants could choose to leave their guitars in a stable environment during lunch? If insurance is a concern, could not the contestants simply sign a waiver? Or maybe hire a security guard for the time slot to stand at the door and prevent entry? Sending contestant guitars out into the heat at lunchtime put a lot of undue stress on the instruments (and the makers) and really does seem unnecessary.
- Valuing the prizes for the Flamenco category at 30% less than the Classical is simply not cool. As the categories, under the conditions laid out by the competition, are so intrinsically similar, bringing market conditions into the mix in such a manner is really questionable, IMO.
- Lastly, I feel for the competition to truly attain international legitimacy, any actions that could lead to the suggestion of conflicts of interest should be studiously avoided. In that sense, those directly or even indirectly associated with GSI or Jitamen should consider recusing themselves from judging positions. As it is, there is a real danger that the competition can present the appearance of being a vehicle largely in place for commercial interests to seek out new additions to their stables, and/or to promote those with whom they already have an association. I’m not saying this is the case in practice, but the appearance is there and I think it will ultimately prove to be unhealthy.

So, in conclusion, to anyone who is considering entry; Granada is probably one of my favourite places in the world and I highly recommend visiting there, if one has not done so already. In that sense, the competition and associated festival provides a great excuse to go. Just book an extra week, if possible, and really enjoy the city. Bring a beautiful guitar. Above all, don’t take it too seriously. If you believe in your work enough to enter, then you’ve already arrived, IMO, and you’ll have the pleasure of seeing and hearing the works of other makers and will also have the opportunity to make some new friends. In that sense, it’s all good.

Hopefully my critical remarks to the organizers don’t get me blacklisted or anything. At the moment, I see this as largely being a prestigious, niche event. It’s fun, and worthwhile in many ways, but as it stands, and in my opinion, it’s a little too tainted by business interests, regional bias, and build restrictions to be considered hugely significant to guitar making in the broader scheme of things. This is in no way intended to be taken as a reflection on the quality of the winning instruments last year, they were all indeed beautiful and deserving. Ditto on the sincerity of the organizers. It’s just that it would be unfortunate if the manner in which the competition is conducted could, in any way, lead to speculation that might diminish the accomplishments of the makers.

I truly hope that my comments are considered in the spirit in which they are being given. I am doing so out of great respect, not just for the event organizers, but also for the participants. I have a deep love for Granada and a deep love of my craft. I can’t help but feel that, just as the entrants could benefit from feedback concerning areas of improvement, so also can the event. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is, and will be what it chooses.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 4 2020 20:40:27
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to RobF

Well thought out and beautifully written.

As it is, I would not care to present any of my work at this time in my building career, as it's time for me to rest a bit

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2020 2:53:39
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to RobF

Hey Rob, thanks for those thoughts. The only thing I would caution you all on is that 2018’s winner made a very over-the-top guitar and then WAS asked to repeat it for the promised guitars that he had to sell. No other discrepancies on my part. I myself have not entered the competition at any time and cannot speak to some of those details.

_____________________________

John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2020 6:41:21
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to johnguitar

quote:

The only thing I would caution you all on is that 2018’s winner made a very over-the-top guitar and then WAS asked to repeat it for the promised guitars that he had to sell.


Ouch. That’s a pretty important clarification. Thanks for that.

I guess my initial instinct wasn’t as far off-base as I feared. That being said, there sure were some gorgeous instruments present at last year’s event, it was humbling. And, as usual, I enjoyed our conversations, as I always do on the occasions that we have been able to meet. I always manage to learn something good from them, and I appreciate that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2020 7:50:02
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Well thought out and beautifully written.
As it is, I would not care to present any of my work at this time in my building career, as it's time for me to rest a bit


Thanks Tom. The important thing for you is to maintain your strength and concentrate on regaining your health. That you continue to plug away at your latest build, in the face of fighting an illness, and still make the effort to post regular updates about it to the Foro, is inspiring. Best wishes to you and hopes for a speedy recovery.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2020 8:12:16
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to RobF

quote:

Ouch. That’s a pretty important clarification.

Welcome to the world of being represented by a dealer. Most likely, the retail selling price of the guitars will be double what the winner receives for them, upholding their value in the eyes of the final consumers. That's how dealers make money. The luthier gets exposure, advertising, in return.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2020 19:28:09
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to constructordeguitarras

I guess the question is how heavily should the dealer/maker dynamic be tied to the dynamic of a competition associated with a guitar festival?

I think, if it begins to take on the appearance of simply being a “cattle call” for a couple of prestigious boutique dealers, then it will be up to the festival, future contestants, and also the judges, who volunteer their time, to assess its value and to decide on whether it warrants their participation.

It takes me a lot of time to write something like the summary above so I don’t want to rehash. I just assumed that most entrants would already be fully aware of the types of arrangements that take place between dealers and makers. I hadn’t considered that it might also be helpful to explain it to the general public, so thanks, it’s an important point, and I probably should have included it.

I am also certainly not trying to dissuade anyone from participating. Hopefully my post did not come across that way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2020 14:38:06
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to RobF

quote:

I am also certainly not trying to dissuade anyone from participating. Hopefully my post did not come across that way.


I certainly did not get that impression. But I realize that a writer can only get through some explanations with having to leave others, due to time constraint. Also, it's a little difficult for me to read a lengthy post.

My take on the basic reasons here is that Guitar makers will make deals, after their winning competition, to advertise their entry into a wider field of exposure.

And according to my own understanding is that I'm already established and due to my slow down in building, I don't need a lot of additional exposure.

So the newbies have to work out their own way of advertising their products and this is just another way to do it.

Personally, I believe that giving an exclusive to any store is not a great advantage for the builder, as it ties the builder into a place where he has to accommodate the one store and not sell to other stores.

I did this with one company for about 15 years and lived to regret it, due to leaving myself open to their decision to buy, etc. This also left me with other stores thinking ill of my practice for not sharing my work with them.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2020 16:36:23
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Thanks Tom. I’d have to go back and check the rules, but I don’t think there’s any exclusivity commitment tied to the prizes. And I still think building a competition/special guitar is the way to go. The guitars last year were really very, very nice.

One thing I want to stress is that, criticisms aside, I feel the positives of the festival and competition far outweigh the negatives and I encourage makers who are in their upward trajectory to consider entering.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2020 23:40:21
 
ernandez R

Posts: 742
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: 4th annual Guitar making competition (in reply to johnguitar

The one thing missing from this competition is a builder cup. An award given after all the guitar builders inspect and critique each others guitars.

Perhaps adding a class for beginning builders also judged by all the advanced builders. Less of a showcase and more of a learning experience?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2020 21:02:57
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

6.347656E-02 secs.