Falseta vs Llamada

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Falseta vs Llamada

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Falseta vs Llamada

I just came across the word llamada when reading a first few pages of Duende flamenco of Claude Worms.

What is the difference between llamada and falseta? Llamada has something to do with baile accompaniment. Falseta is used for cante accompaniment. Am I right?

The book says llamada is a short theme. It gives more room for improvisation whereas falseta is more or less pre-determined melodical lines. That means one can't improvise falseta during accompaniment, let alone compose. So I have to thank you guys again, especially Mr Marlow, who has pointed out that in Which scale thread.

Could you guys show me the difference between the two using audio or youtube?

Much appreciated!!!

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2019 17:05:11

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

Try search on the foro:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=Llamada+

Also try this for a beginning introduction to accompaniment (baile), it explains the structure of an alegrias with audio and tab examples.
Like everything else in flamenco there are variations but if you start by learning this you'll have some reference.

https://ravennaflamenco.com/tab/alegria-accompaniment/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2019 17:23:41

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

What is the difference between llamada and falseta? Llamada is something to do with baile accompaniment. Falseta is used for cante accompaniment. Am I right?

a llamada is literally a call.

the guitar plays a llamada to call the singer when accompanying cante.

a dancer does a llamada to call the singer, and the guitar accompanies the dancer calling the singer. so in accompanying the baile the guitar accompanies the dancer to call the singer.

a guitarist can punctuate their solo between falsetas with llamadas.

guitar falsetas give the singer a break between letras.

a dancer will dance to a falseta.

a guitarist will string together falsetas to make a solo

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2019 18:11:22

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 15 2020 15:09:19

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2019 18:22:44

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

Could it be that Devilhand is really THE Professor?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2019 4:23:33

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Also try this for a beginning introduction to accompaniment (baile), it explains the structure of an alegrias with audio and tab examples.
Like everything else in flamenco there are variations but if you start by learning this you'll have some reference.

https://ravennaflamenco.com/tab/alegria-accompaniment/

Thnx for the link. Is it me or is it difficult distinguish temple ,llamada, falseta, copla from each other in Alegria Accompaniment? The player knows where he is in compas and what he plays when. As a listener, I can't tell the difference.

quote:

Well, I sure am glad you didn't run into it 3 weeks ago when I wrote a full outline of an Alegrias choreography for you, which featured the word "llamada" 4 times...

I'm also glad that you didn't take those all but 5 minutes it would have taken to find an answer to this question on Google, Youtube, or even directly on this forum by using the search function...

As a beginner, I couldn't do anything with the your post in Structure of Palo thread. Here I asked what llamada is and how it differs from other sections of palo, in particular from falseta.

I could have used the search function but there's no audio or youtube explanation, mostly a definition of llamada or other sections of palo with weird names. Explaining it in words doesn't help me. Some youtube videos in older threads are not available anymore. That's why I asked for audio or youtube.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2019 13:14:46

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

Here is an example of the sections Pwin was talking about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2019 15:23:14

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 15 2020 15:09:29

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2019 17:24:17

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

Excellent posts, Piwin and Jason. Thanks :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2019 21:33:07

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

Thank you for your detailed and informative post Piwin. I think you are correct regarding temple.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 8:21:52

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

The book says llamada is some kind of falseta but it gives more room for improvisation whereas falseta is more or less pre-determined melodical lines.

I would say the reason he says llamadas have "more room for improvisation" is because llamadas are short, more or less the same, and occur in any and every song/dance, so every guitarist develops a variety of ways to play essentially the same simple thing, "improvising" slurred ornaments and/or rasjeos at will.

As you are looking at a guitar transcription book, here are two examples from solos from different eras that are basically the same, and would work (probably with some adaptation) for accompanying as well as solos:

here 1 compas llamada at 0:22 - 0:29

here compas llamada at 0:49 - 1:01 and again at 2:01 - 2:16

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 17:28:31

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

Hey Piwin Thank you very much. Feels like it's already Xmas!
Gradually it becomes clearer.

Temple and ayeo sound kinda different to my ears. Temple is like eyee whereas ayeo is mostly ayeo in most palos except for Alegrias tiriti tran tran. Who's with me?

I read somewhere ayeo or eyee is very characteristic for any cante. They tried to solve the mystery behind it and asked where it might have come from.

quote:

Worms really wrote that a llamada is a kind of falseta, then dunno, maybe he was high when he wrote that?

Sorry for the confusion. He was correct. It was my mistake. I'm gonna correct it in my first post above.

He wrote that llamadas are short themes (maybe we have to know first in a musical context what a theme is). Llamadas are characteristic to each palo, based on compas and used as a bridge between falsetas and rasgueados, as well as between the singer and the guitarist. But I didn't understand the last part "...between the singer and the guitarist". Does anyone have an idea what he's trying to say there?

He also wrote that unlike the falsetas, the variations on llamadas are often improvised.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 17:39:06

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

"...between the singer and the guitarist". Does anyone have an idea what he's trying to say there?

from post above:

quote:

a llamada is literally a call.

the guitar plays a llamada to call the singer when accompanying cante.

So in this vid the guitarist plays a llamada to call the singer 0:40 - 0:44 and again at 2:40 - 2:44

and in this vid the guitar plays llamada at 0:26 - 0:33 and again at 3:24 - 3:30

No dancing!

my reference for these very typical phrases being called llamadas is Miguel Ángel Cortés.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 18:10:20

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 15 2020 15:09:43

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 19:06:24

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

definitions in flamenco can be a real clusterfuck.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 20:40:22

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo)

@mark indigo and piwin. Thanks to both of you.

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2019 17:37:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.

It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2019 11:29:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

My conclusion is llamada is any short phrase that is played just before the singer starts singing.

It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.

Piwin post was great nothing to add except yes temple and ayeo are interchangeable terms, the other most often used is “salida”.

About improvise llamada.... I get what he means. I always improvise the llamada for dance in the sense that I can make up accents and rasgueado and my own rueda of chords however I want so long as we rematar together. The better I know the choreography the more adventurous I may get with my version of the llamada. The less I know the dancer the more conservative I will be with my chords and accents. I agree “any sort of phrase” is not correct, it’s always a rhythmic statement, even if it is not only strumming techniques used. Falsetas are typically set in stone, so that’s what Worms probably meant. I must admit that those of us who don’t like editing our nice perfect falsetas to better fit a choreography more often opt to improvise or at least compose on the fly, a falseta that fits the dance structure perfectly. I call those “BS program falsetas” lol

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2019 13:59:50

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

It's not "any" sort of phrase, they are actually quite specific phrases, and any "improvisation" referred to by Worms is only in the details or ornaments of the phrase, or choice of which version of the specific phrase. They let the singer know that the guitar falseta has concluded and it's time for them to sing. The singer will recognise those specific phrases and take their cue.

In the baile, the dancers llamada is doing the same thing, calling the singer to sing after the entrada, falseta or escobilla, and the guitar's accompaniment to that is recognised (and can be used the same way in cante accompaniment or solo) as much as the dancers movements and footwork.

Thanks mark indigo. That clarifies a lot.

quote:

I always improvise the llamada for dance in the sense that I can make up accents and rasgueado and my own rueda of chords however I want so long as we rematar together.

I wonder how many beats do llamadas normally last in 12 beat compas such as Solea or in 4/4 time palos like Tango.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2019 17:45:11

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

I wonder how many beats do llamadas normally last in 12 beat compas such as Solea or in 4/4 time palos like Tango.

at least one compas
For baile llamada cante often 2 compas, can be more e.g. 4
For guitar llamada cante more often 1, or 2 compas

Here at 0.26 guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante
at 3.35 baile/guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2019 8:16:41

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

at least one compas
For baile llamada cante often 2 compas, can be more e.g. 4
For guitar llamada cante more often 1, or 2 compas

Here at 0.26 guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante
at 3.35 baile/guitar 'calls'=llamada for cante

Thnks orsonw

If I tapped my foot correctly, from 0:26 to 0:30, it's exactly 1 compas (12 beats).
It ends actually on beat 9. Beat 10 is muted. Donwstroke on 11. 12 is muted again just before singer starts singing at 0:30.
I thought in 12 beat compas, 10 is the beat where the guitar playing ends. Maybe my timing is 1 beat earlier.

What is played from 0:00 to 0:26? Falseta?

Llamada starting from 3:35 does last 2 compas. Cante starts on beat 3 or 4 of the 3rd compas at 3:44.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2019 11:49:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

If I tapped my foot correctly, from 0:26 to 0:30, it's exactly 1 compas (12 beats).
It ends actually on beat 9. Beat 10 is muted.

No it’s ten your count is off.

Here I am improvising llamadas on stage for a set choreography I am not familiar with.
One compas llamada kick off intro cante, then a sped up buleria type llamada :22 it’s three compases then after the letra one compas llamada at 1:19. I played a single compas and realized I needed a falseta... I play one that is set and just pray it fits... it was short so I attached a second one that I had to cut short and do a super long llamada 5 compases long at 2:01(good example of having to improvise the rhythms to keep it interesting if you don’t know when they will end), second letra with a respiro at 2:27, basically a one compas llamada as well, after letra is a build up step ie the speed up into bulerias tempo and maintain it. I missed the llamada at 3:48, or rather I caught the end of it, which signaled a tempo jump up even faster... final one compas llamada at 4:00 and video cuts off.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2019 18:08:39

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Here I am improvising llamadas on stage for a set choreography I am not familiar with.

Nice video. Dancers seem to anticipate every beat and adjust their movements to that.

Which palo is that? What I noticed is llamadas tend to end on beat 10. Right?
Because both llamadas starting from 0:22 and 2:01 end on 10 leaving last 2 beats muted.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2019 12:47:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

It’s Alegrias.

Stop on 10. The respiro I hit 9&, down up. Any llamada can do that too. Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2019 16:13:22

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

That means the guitar accompaniment was spot on.

Btw, what guitar are you playing there? Sounds as if it were amplified or something. A powerful sound if you think it was an open air stage.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2019 12:04:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

The dancers when in a group can’t improvise so it is a set choreography well rehearsed. It was not rehearsed with ME however lol.

That means the guitar accompaniment was spot on.

Btw, what guitar are you playing there? Sounds as if it were amplified or something. A powerful sound if you think it was an open air stage.

It’s 1997 Conde Hermanos A26. It’s being miked of course but it’s not balanced to the singers, the falseta is lost and I’m playing hard as hell. I hate festivals.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2019 21:55:48

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

As far as I can remember the song Yesterday by Beatles ends on offbeat 2&, which is not unusual for a pop/rock song in 4/4 time.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2020 17:57:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Again when improvising count ten is the safest but it’s not wrong to anticipate the ten by stopping hard on 9 or 9& etc if you know it in advance.

As far as I can remember the song Yesterday by Beatles ends on offbeat 2&, which is not unusual for a pop/rock song in 4/4 time.

That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2020 18:57:39

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

Thanks for pointing this out. Could you please shed some light on the distinction between the two?

I know that palos are musical forms. But it gets confusing.
One source says cante jondo is one of the 3 forms of cante. Other sources say in classical music, forms are used to define movements with different tempos.
For example a fast movement is in sonata-allegro form. A slow movement can be in rondo form.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2020 15:32:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falseta vs Llamada (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

That’s a “song” not a “song FORM”, which is an important distinction.

Thanks for pointing this out. Could you please shed some light on the distinction between the two?

I know that palos are musical forms. But it gets confusing.
One source says cante jondo is one of the 3 forms of cante. Other sources say in classical music, forms are used to define movements with different tempos.
For example a fast movement is in sonata-allegro form. A slow movement can be in rondo form.

Well I often use “blues” or “fugue” or “sonata allegro” as examples or song form similar to flamenco forms. But tempos are a small part of what might define a form. “Movements” in classical are usually the individual pieces in a “suite” or “Partita” where you have a group of “forms”. That suite concept would be like a flamenco Album where you know you will have at least several different types of forms depending on the artist. The details that might define ANY song form can’t be generalized across all genres. In the case of Fugue you have the subject and the answer in dominant, then again, which is exposition so you develop 4 separate voices....with blues you have the I IV I V IV I progression over 12 measures. Both of these forms don’t have a tempo dependence. An “allegro” is thought to be fast. In flamenco you have the compas and the structure of letras. Because compas is rhythm not just measures, tempo plays a more important role.

All of that above differs from writing pop songs as the Beatles example shows where you have a blank canvas to choose rhythm, melody length, harmony and chords etc there is nothing to follow or parameters to go outside of so the concept of “form” doesn’t apply. For example you pointed out the rhythmic conclusion which is only incidental as it follows the rhythm of saying the word “Yesterday” as three syllables starting on beat one. Yes....ter-day becomes 1 2&. There is no other reason the song needed to end there, in fact filling in the measure to next down beat would not hurt the song at all.

“Cante jondo” is a term used to generalize a group of cantes that is probably more to some aficionado’s tastes. Some guy likes sad or tragic theme lyrics so wants to apply a heavy “weight” to them and lump them together. Most flamenco artists don’t necessarily feel the lighter forms (alegria buleria fandango etc) are all supposed to be light hearted....on the contrary. The most obvious are shared lyrics of bulerias and solea. The exact same letra can be sung for both, so the depth and meaning can’t be any different. Slow tempos might superficially create “depth” however I would prefer to call that “drama” as opposed to true deep meaning.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2020 16:42:47