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RE: Which scales?
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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 RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
See you got backwards.
Ugh. First of all, there is no bII. This happens in academic discussions of flamenco all the time as in Hess's discussion of flamenco in her book about de Falla or Grout and Palisca's discussion of flamenco in their chapter on Bizet. Whichever scale-degree key you are in, the scale determines the roman numeral. You don't say biii in minor because it is implied in the scale-degree/key.
That aside, II is not a substitute for anything. Flamenco shares common features with popular/folk because social groups are never completely isolated. It is distinct enough to assume that at least some of its important features, especially in combination, are unique to it. II acts like a dominant but is not. Even with the raise sixth it will never substitute for the dominant and vice-verse [in the basic system - not talking about advanced solo playing but the system itself].quote:
The superficial octatonic natural phyrigian dominant hybrid (ie modal) and it’s derived chord scale, or any others folks want to claim as the “basis” of flamenco phrygian forms, which it is NOT.
That is not my claim. Theories attempt to explain something. Some do a better job than others. Only the flamenco octatonic scale can account for all diatonic chords and the tonic with its proper raised 3rd. You could also say that the harmonic minor is not, or the phrygian is not because neither of them explain the totality of the system. Therefore, I think the flamenco octatonic works nicely because of its ease. I also gave four examples which show have to be explained either by claiming that they are mixing phrygian and phrygian dominant or omitting notes at their composer leisure. Either will work.
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Are you talking the basic diatonic circle of fifths, or the chromatic versions that arise through sequencing, voice-leading techniques, etc.
Well the basic one obviously.
Can you give and example that uses the cycle of fifths that includes the V in phrygian? I cannot find any in the pillar. In Paco, perhaps?
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its weak, just as weak as the v-i in minor key. My dancer friend calls it “gay”. . Anyway, for sure old schoolers balk at such “deceptive cadences” that prefer the old stuff. When I said “abandon” it, I am speaking in terms of the way the “v” is abandoned for the stronger “V” in minor key songs. Not like it’s outcast from society for all eternity
Lol. Politically correct she's not. These silly flailers. 
In a master class a really good teacher scoffed at CM7 in solea. Yet he uses its equivalent in other palos. Maybe it was a particular voicing [because those guys fon't know inversions are the same chord  ] but I got the feeling he thought it was "gay."
Maybe its a vocab/terminology thing. The v is not abandoned...composers make choices about what they want to use. As for the Nino Miguel, the v7 chord (half dim) occurs on the third, sixth, and ninth beat and give a clear harmonic accent. Rhythm and meter are often ignored in discussions of harmony but harmonic change has important implications for them and vice verse. For that reason, I do not hear it the same way you do. Imagine if he abandoned it for some other chord.
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Date Nov. 22 2019 19:12:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo)
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quote:
Your posts are immensely long and detailed chronicles, like the eddas or upanishads and I don't read them. I just don't have the mental energy to invest in something that doesn't address what I'm saying. So, I don't recall anything about F7#11 being played instead of F(maj7#11) at beat 3 in Solea, for example. I'm quite ready to allow all chords to appear at various points but that is not one of them.
I’ve addressed you directly and concisely several times regarding your points. Sorry if you refuse to read the more detailed ones that addressed your concerns, and that you missed the printed score examples of F7#11 “instead of” Fmaj7#11. They are there to look at but since you are so cool you have no time to read a damn thing I wrote and prefer to take time to make underhanded comments about goat herding flamencos, please have fun with your A harmonic minor G chords, I’m done with you.
quote:
Ugh. First of all, there is no bII. This happens in academic discussions of flamenco all the time as in Hess's discussion of flamenco in her book about de Falla or Grout and Palisca's discussion of flamenco in their chapter on Bizet. Whichever scale-degree key you are in, the scale determines the roman numeral. You don't say biii in minor because it is implied in the scale-degree/key.
That aside, II is not a substitute for anything. Flamenco shares common features with popular/folk because social groups are never completely isolated.
No, that’s what I mean by “backwards”. I’m trying to show how one could justify such a thing as a flamenco phrygian tonal system in the first place, and you are already pretending that the thing exists and is commonly accepted by the academia of music theory land, and everyone on foro and trying to point out some error I’m making about a freaking b2. Worse, you pulled my statement out of the context of where I was pointing out your confusion about what “tritone sub” means. And let’s be clear, you are confused because you keep thinking that we are ALL talking about an already agreed upon established framework for “Spanish phrygian tonal system”, where tritone subbing just doesn’t happen.
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II acts like a dominant but is not. Even with the raise sixth it will never substitute for the dominant and vice-verse [in the basic system - not talking about advanced solo playing but the system itself]. . Well, as I keep saying, take it up with Tschaikovsky, cuz we both say you are dead wrong right there.... and worse, since you can’t admit we are correct, then you are left with a non functioning “spanish phrygian tonal system”, just like Boredo over here with his harmonic F minus, so you two can have fun doing whatever non functioning flamenco harmonies y’all think so cool and spanishy, and I’ll keep doing what I know is actually happening in the genre. 🙄
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Date Nov. 23 2019 10:02:27
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo)
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I mean, enlarge the focus of the quote and things look a bit different, no? (added bold to highlight what I think is the important part)
"Although the latter two of these authors [referring to Telemann and Mattheson, both early 18th century] cite the association with the devil as from the past, there are no known citations of this term from the Middle Ages, as is commonly asserted. However Denis Arnold, in the New Oxford Companion to Music, suggests that the nickname was already applied early in the medieval music itself:
It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords (...)"
As far as I can recall, Guido d'Arezzo simply said that the interval should be avoided. There was no moral judgement on it or association with "danger" or "evil". That only shows up with Telemann, Fux and the like. So dunno, either Denis Arnold did find contemporary citations for this and the Wikipedia article is wrong in saying no such citations exist, or there are no such citations and he's just making **** up. That said, I know that historians have their own standards of evidence. Maybe the lack of contemporary citations isn't a problem for them if they have later citations referring to the past that they deem reliable. Dunno.
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Date Nov. 23 2019 15:23:20
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