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Open G or an A?   You are logged in as Guest
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Auda

 

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

Open G or an A? 
One of the Sabicas pieces I am working on is "Aires de Triana" from the Trotter transcription (See attached below). The first rasgueado sequence shows an A chord played with an open G but the version I listen to seems to have it played with an A. Does this sound like the case to you (around:08 to :18)?

Another question is the accent on the Bb/A#. The accent appears to be played on the up stroke but I am having a bit of a time with it. Is there a trick to it?



Cheers

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2019 16:27:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
What does it sound like to you, open 3rd string or 2nd fret 3rd string?

Which do you like best, open third string or second fret third string?

Play that.

Seriously.

Play what you hear and/or what you like. It's your interpretation.

You are much better off closing the book, slowing down the audio to half speed and learning it from that. Use software or a media player that allows you to loop small sections.

If you can't get it from half speed audio you probably won't be able to play it anyway. I am not kidding, that's my experience.... and I wasted years of my life with transcriptions before I put them all back on the shelf and devoted myself to just trusting my ears and developing that skill.

It sounds like an A note to me, ie. an A chord not an A7 chord. But both would be perfectly appropriate in that context.

re the Bb chord, the one on the first beat of the line of music before the two golpes and the disputed A/A7 chord, it's an upstroke on beat 6 I think, so that's typical.

I can't see how the half compas before that is notated but it sounds like beat 3 is a heavy down (I would do that with MA - I don't know what Trotter thinks Sabicas did), 4 is empty, 5 is a light downstroke with index, and 6 is upstroke.

Maybe Paul can tell us if he knew Trotter, and/or if Trotter was working from lessons with Sabicas or Escudero, or from going to see Sabicas live and booking as seat in the front row, or ancient VHS tape... because otherwise his transcription, like any other transcription, is ultimately his interpretation of what he is hearing on the same audio we are listening to. More or less informed by his knowledge and experience, of course, but ultimately an interpretation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2019 17:20:38
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Either way you are using someone else's interpretation. There are different approaches to learning but they can evolve through time. For me, as of now, I prefer reading first and using my ear to refine or reconcile to what I hear.

Slowing the recorded version down distorts the sound and when it is played at a high rate of speed it becomes more difficult to discern. I prefer, if trying to figure something out, to listen to it at regular speed. When trying to learn just by ear I have a lot more trouble memorising the piece so that plays in to it for me.

Cheers for the response.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2019 17:54:33
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
Didn't realise the first part was obscured so added it here.

Cheers

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2019 22:51:38
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
It’s an A and the second measure has A-Bb-A hammer pull off same as 4th measure.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2019 14:49:38
 
Auda

 

Posts: 246
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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

It’s an A and the second measure has A-Bb-A hammer pull off same as 4th measure.


That's what I thought was the case. Thanks for the confirmation. Any thoughts on articulating the accent as played on the recording?

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2019 15:30:05
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

Either way you are using someone else's interpretation.

Not sure if I follow you - if you are using the audio of Sabicas then that is the composers original.

quote:

When trying to learn just by ear I have a lot more trouble memorising the piece so that plays in to it for me.

developing the ear-memory is a useful skill to develop, well, more like an essential skill really.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2019 15:03:31
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

Not sure if I follow you - if you are using the audio of Sabicas then that is the composers original.


What I was trying to say is if you read the music or try to copy someone by ear the end result is likely to be the same - a copy of what you are listening to or reading.

I think the ear/memory is more essential if you are playing with others than if you are playing solo. It is a nice attribute to have but in my view it is not an exclusive barrier in order to play.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2019 15:38:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
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From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

It’s an A and the second measure has A-Bb-A hammer pull off same as 4th measure.


That's what I thought was the case. Thanks for the confirmation. Any thoughts on articulating the accent as played on the recording?

Cheers


Lots of thoughts but not sure what you are after exactly. He is playing the standard base compas that everybody should learn first. Up tap up tap, Bb, tap tap, up tap up tap A tap etc

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2019 23:17:45
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

What I was trying to say is if you read the music or try to copy someone by ear the end result is likely to be the same - a copy of what you are listening to or reading.

ok, but the point I was trying to make is that if you are reading a transcription by someone else of the composers recording of his composition, then that is an interpretation, and you are interpreting someone else's interpretation.

In other words, Trotter has interpreted Sabicas' recording, and you are trying to interpret Trotter's score, which is an interpretation of an interpretation....

...instead of making your own interpretation by either reading a score written by a composer or playing from a recording played by the composer (in this case).

quote:

I think the ear/memory is more essential if you are playing with others than if you are playing solo.

also essential for taking lessons

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2019 14:33:23
 
Auda

 

Posts: 246
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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Lots of thoughts but not sure what you are after exactly. He is playing the standard base compas that everybody should learn first. Up tap up tap, Bb, tap tap, up tap up tap A tap etc


Thanks, I was referring to the dotted Bb chord found at the very beginning of the second page. I have yet to get something approximate to the way it is stressed. The music shows it being played with an up stroke but I am struggling to reproduce the sound I hear. I starting to think it could be a Bb variation to what is written but still am struggling to stress that chord regardless and was wondering if there might be a "special" technique I am not aware.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2019 15:31:23
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Mark, I think we are just discussing semantics regarding the application of interpretation.

"also essential for taking lessons"

I am aware my queries could be considered a breech of etiquette by soliciting information of value without compensation. I have tried to limit my "transgressions" to specific examples. I might be overly sensitive and if this is your implication I apologise.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2019 15:49:48
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

Mark, I think we are just discussing semantics regarding the application of interpretation.

I don't really understand what this means does "discussing semantics" mean you think we have different understanding of the word involved? or something else? The point I was making was that working from a transcription of a flamenco recording is a DOUBLE interpretation compared to the SINGLE interpretation of working from the original audio. I don't know a great deal about (western) classical music but I understand scores have a different status in that tradition, where they are written by the composer and interpreted by the musician.

quote:

"also essential for taking lessons"

I am aware my queries could be considered a breech of etiquette by soliciting information of value without compensation. I have tried to limit my "transgressions" to specific examples. I might be overly sensitive and if this is your implication I apologise.

Don't worry, I don't think your queries are any breach of etiquette, go ahead and ask away... but as Ricardo said "He is playing the standard base compas that everybody should learn first. " meaning (as I understand it) learn the compás first, ideally from a teacher, by ear etc. before you attempt a solo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2019 0:45:35
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

Lots of thoughts but not sure what you are after exactly. He is playing the standard base compas that everybody should learn first. Up tap up tap, Bb, tap tap, up tap up tap A tap etc


Thanks, I was referring to the dotted Bb chord found at the very beginning of the second page. I have yet to get something approximate to the way it is stressed. The music shows it being played with an up stroke but I am struggling to reproduce the sound I hear. I starting to think it could be a Bb variation to what is written but still am struggling to stress that chord regardless and was wondering if there might be a "special" technique I am not aware.

Cheers


The first Bb chord is played down stroke flicked off the thumb with index. The dotted one on the second line is up stroke and you only catch the treble strings. He does a choked version then taps... in other words a rest not a dot would make sense, however it’s not what we normally do. Normally it’s up, then pull off the bass note first fret Bb on 5th to an open A, but from its held sound because the up stroke again only gets the trebles, so a “ghost” pull off.... next tap UP tap. The up stroke on his version is missing or doesn’t sound due to a muting of the chord that we normally let ring. It could be that this is actually how he is playing it but his pinky has decided to reach over and mute or choke the ringing chord unintentionally. I say this because he also does that deliberately on an A chord later.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2019 11:18:39
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to mark indigo) 
What I was trying to say I think we are on the same page as to "interpretation".

I far as learning compás I believe I have a basic handle on the rhythmic patterns. I am trying to reconcile what I am reading with what I am hearing or in this case the differences between the two. It is a methodology that has always worked for me in the past though there are some more flamenco specific technical elements are am still trying to establish both aurally and physically.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 17:30:59
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

The first Bb chord is played down stroke flicked off the thumb with index. The dotted one on the second line is up stroke and you only catch the treble strings. He does a choked version then taps... in other words a rest not a dot would make sense, however it’s not what we normally do. Normally it’s up, then pull off the bass note first fret Bb on 5th to an open A, but from its held sound because the up stroke again only gets the trebles, so a “ghost” pull off.... next tap UP tap. The up stroke on his version is missing or doesn’t sound due to a muting of the chord that we normally let ring. It could be that this is actually how he is playing it but his pinky has decided to reach over and mute or choke the ringing chord unintentionally. I say this because he also does that deliberately on an A chord later.


I do not fully understand Ricardo. It seems to me from the recording from the end of the first page A chord down w/golpe followed by an up stroke then Bb down w/golpe followed by another Bb using a down stroke. Then the Bb again with down then up with the up stressed on the trebles. After that I hear what sounds like two(?) muted i stokes prior to the double golpe. I am getting the idea that the notation on rasgueados is more of a hint rather than being something that is more definitive. I appreciate you having taken the time.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2019 17:59:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

The first Bb chord is played down stroke flicked off the thumb with index. The dotted one on the second line is up stroke and you only catch the treble strings. He does a choked version then taps... in other words a rest not a dot would make sense, however it’s not what we normally do. Normally it’s up, then pull off the bass note first fret Bb on 5th to an open A, but from its held sound because the up stroke again only gets the trebles, so a “ghost” pull off.... next tap UP tap. The up stroke on his version is missing or doesn’t sound due to a muting of the chord that we normally let ring. It could be that this is actually how he is playing it but his pinky has decided to reach over and mute or choke the ringing chord unintentionally. I say this because he also does that deliberately on an A chord later.


I do not fully understand Ricardo. It seems to me from the recording from the end of the first page A chord down w/golpe followed by an up stroke then Bb down w/golpe followed by another Bb using a down stroke. Then the Bb again with down then up with the up stressed on the trebles. After that I hear what sounds like two(?) muted i stokes prior to the double golpe. I am getting the idea that the notation on rasgueados is more of a hint rather than being something that is more definitive. I appreciate you having taken the time.

Cheers


As written the rhythmic dotted quarter note Bb chord played up stroke is not correct because the chord gets muted, ie doesn’t continue ringing. The muting happens with left hand pinky. The next A chords are also played staccato this way, not full value quarter notes, giving a funky rhythmic flavor. I suspect he was playing on that Bb chord the normal tap up tap right hand pattern however the left hand pinky mute squelched the up stroke, as the pinky muting is happening on the up beat or in between beat sixteenth notes.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 16:42:25
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

The muting happens with left hand pinky.


Not sure of the mechanics because the pinky is likely being used for the D in the Bb chord so it might be the mute is done by decreasing pressure/muting with the left hand. It would seem to play into the muted ghost i finger flick(s) I hear just prior to the double tap. For the staccato on the following A chord I have been trying to used both the decreased pressure method in combination with the pinky reach across to mute the open A but the 3 finger hammer on/pull off in the second A chord rasgueado makes it a bit awkward using the pinky. I seems that it can be executed but it will take some practice for coordination.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 17:36:16
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
Bb chord fingered Bb 1, F 2, G string open, D 3, E open, pinky mutes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 13:28:38
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I have been playing the Bb chord Bb1, open D, Bb3, D3, open E, hence my mechanics comment, as opposed to how it is fingered in the Trotter transcription.

I'll give your fingering a go though it does not seem to appear in the list of Bb(s) compiled in the "All Flamenco chords in Tab" thread. Should it be?

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 14:40:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
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From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

I have been playing the Bb chord Bb1, open D, Bb3, D3, open E, hence my mechanics comment, as opposed to how it is fingered in the Trotter transcription.

I'll give your fingering a go though it does not seem to appear in the list of Bb(s) compiled in the "All Flamenco chords in Tab" thread. Should it be?

Cheers


It is in fact the 6th Bb voicing I wrote in “All flamenco chords”. It can be fingered differently, I’m just giving a suggestion on how one can still mute the Bb chord with a free finger. The muting is hardly the important issue with interpretation of the trotter or any other transcription. The issue is that the compas variations should never be adhered to note for note, they are meant to be off the cuff between falsetas.... or if you are trying to learn a specific compas pattern because of its unique details to be extracted for personal use it’s fine, but for sure the concept of going through a flamenco guitar score as if it’s a Bach fugue is missing out on the bigger concept of what flamenco is about.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 15:55:23
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:


What I was trying to say I think we are on the same page as to "interpretation".

I don't think we are.... I think "copying" a recording of a flamenco guitarist is the way to go, and treating a transcription like a classical score is not (the way to go) IMO. Scores in flamenco don't have the same validity that I understand they do in classical music, because they are never written by the composer themselves, but only ever by a third party "transcriber". That's why I sometimes joke that "All flamenco transcriptions are wrong!"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 17:02:28
 
Auda

 

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RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
Ricardo and Mark - I completely understand what your are on about. For me, just starting out in Flamenco I am looking for a few points of reference before I can expand and is the reason I give the consideration I do to the scores. Mark, you said previously you quit reading music and now mostly play by ear but I would guess the prior reading has given solid points of reference.

I admit I have been a bit bogged down with a couple of the Sabicas pieces I have been learning but I think that is more from the use of different chords, musical expressions and especially the nuances of the different rasqueados. I have of late been making a bit of progress though and hope it will go a little better. For better or worse it the process I have learned how to learn.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 17:43:23
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

Mark, you said previously you quit reading music and now mostly play by ear but I would guess the prior reading has given solid points of reference.
Not really, I never "read" music and only used tablature. I realised with transcriptions that I was over-relying on them and not listening properly. I didn't have a background in classical or jazz before flamenco, so everything I have learnt has been in the context of flamenco. I have had lessons with different teachers for varying amounts of time. The longest was probably the first one for about 9 months (about 20 years ago). I have found video/DVD really helpful.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 18:09:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Auda) 
quote:

I admit I have been a bit bogged down with a couple of the Sabicas pieces I have been learning


Sabicas can be very difficult technique wise. I consider it pretty advanced at times. Don’t get hung up trying to get through a complete piece

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 23:22:06
 
Auda

 

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Open G or an A? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Sabicas can be very difficult technique wise. I consider it pretty advanced at times. Don’t get hung up trying to get through a complete piece


As I said progress has been slow with this piece and Aires De Puerto Real but I think I am getting a better handle on them. With Aires de Triana the main issue is with the differing applications of the rasgueados and adding the additional golpes I hear in the recorded version. I have been playing very small chunks in order to get to speed and rhythm and it seems to be working.

I have memorised 3 other Sabicas pieces and can, at times, play them to speed though I still am working on consistency and polishing. I am also just starting on Campiña Andaluza though having read it through completely it does not look as difficult but I might be talking rubbish since I have yet to get into it much.

I made a mistake on the Bb we were discussing. I got in my head that your description had an E instead of an F on the D string. When I tried it an E it did not sound too out of place.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2019 13:40:26
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