The structure of palos

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

The structure of palos

Could anyone please tell me the structure of palos? Do they have the same structure or does each palo have its own structure?

We know the structure of pop/rock songs:
Intro-Verse1-Prechorus-Chorus-Verse2-Prechorus-Chorus-Bridge-(Solo)-Chorus-Outro

Some songs use the same chords for intro, outro and verse. Some have only 3 or 4 chords played throughout the song except for bridge.

If all palos have the same structure, then I would say accompanying cante is not as difficult as it seems.
Flamenco forms sound to me they are simple 2-4 chord songs due to the lack of melody. From what I have observed so far, if you know the structure of any palo and the main chord progressions, the rest must be simple. You can throw some falseta here and there and the job is done.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2019 16:05:03

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2019 8:23:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

Start by looking at Norman’s site www.canteytoque.es
Go to classification and study of solea styles of cante, read listen and learn. When you think you are ready have a go at examples in this thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2019 16:33:51

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I wanted to make this a challenge, but honestly you have to do it in one and ONLY one take with no practice to be a fair test. That is the true way to accompany and learn.

No way! Either I misunderstood or this is impossible if you don't know which chords, which palo you're dealing with and in which part the cantaor starts and stops singing, in short, how cante is structured.

I did accompany a lot of rock/pop songs with complex harmony changes and syncopated rhythms. The prerequisite is you have to know the song really well first. But it's not that difficult. Why would it be any different when it comes to flamenco? After one has mastered the techniques and can shift between different techniques with ease, everyone will accompany cante. Of course you have to have a broad repertoire of falsetas. This makes accompanying cante maybe different.
Guys stop desperately learning solo pieces. It's time consuming and you have to learn everything by heart. Flamenco is not classical music. Learn how to accompany cante first. This is real flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 13:37:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I wanted to make this a challenge, but honestly you have to do it in one and ONLY one take with no practice to be a fair test. That is the true way to accompany and learn.

No way! Either I misunderstood or this is impossible if you don't know which palo you're dealing with and in which part the cantaor starts and stops singing, in short, how cante is structured.

I did accompany a lot of rock/pop songs with complex harmony changes and syncopated rhythms. The prerequisite is you have to know the song really well first. Why would it be any different when it comes to flamenco? After one has mastered the techniques and can shift between different techniques with ease, everyone will accompany cante. Of course you have to have a broad repertoire of falsetas. This makes accompanying cante maybe different.
Guys stop desperately learning solo pieces. It's time consuming and you have to learn everything by heart. Flamenco is not classical music. Learn how to accompany cante first. This is real flamenco.

Yes it’s different. Imagine you are in a Beatles cover band and you sort of know many but not all the catalog. The singer jumps from please please me verse to we can work it out chorus to all my lovin’ verse to help chorus, but elongates or shortens them so you might have to hang on a chord longer or shorter than the recorded version you are familiar with, plus the singer might change one note to give a different chord than the original etc, all the while maintaining the groove of Norwegian wood when strumming. That’s sort of like accompaniment for cante.

Just finished a show with two singers that had very different styles for singing the same cantes... one guy kept throwing me this curve ball that would be the equivalent of the ending of the chorus of we can work it out “fussing and fighting my friend” and you know it’s done, he would do like “fussing and fight, and fussing and fighting, and fighting and fussing and fighting..... my friend”, that type of thing to trick you. It’s an art all it’s own to learn how to accompany this stuff, and I’m always learning new things with good singers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 13:46:24

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes it’s different. Imagine you are in a Beatles cover band and you sort of know many but not all the catalog. The singer jumps from please please me verse to we can work it out chorus to all my lovin’ verse to help chorus, but elongates or shortens them so you might have to hang on a chord longer or shorter than the recorded version you are familiar with, plus the singer might change one note to give a different chord than the original etc, all the while maintaining the groove of Norwegian wood when strumming. That’s sort of like accompaniment for cante.

Then it's all about being a marionette of the singers. Ok, I believe what you're getting at.

It is really fun to listen to how guys are accompanying cante in Cante Accompaniment Practice Thread. Can't wait to accompany my first cante. What I can do now is creating different accompaniment ideas in my head while listening to cante versions without accompaniment. Is it a proper exercise? How do you practice accompaniment when the guitar is not around for example in the bus or metro etc.?

quote:

Just finished a show with two singers that had very different styles for singing the same cantes... one guy kept throwing me this curve ball that would be the equivalent of the ending of the chorus of we can work it out “fussing and fighting my friend” and you know it’s done, he would do like “fussing and fight, and fussing and fighting, and fighting and fussing and fighting..... my friend”, that type of thing to trick you. It’s an art all it’s own to learn how to accompany this stuff, and I’m always learning new things with good singers.

Instead of making it unnecessarily tricky, why do you guys arrange together beforehand to avoid any bad surprise during a performance?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 15:28:50

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 15:29:59

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

That should be the least of your worries. You can do a great job accompanying without playing a single falseta. Just throw in some compas variations or whatever and everyone will be perfectly happy.

IMO, there'll be then no difference between accompanying cante and pop/rock songs. In this case I'll stick with accompanying pop/rock songs or playing some funk music with hot grooves.

quote:

I'm not a tocaor. I hope I'll become one one day. But I dare to say, from a tocaor's perspective, it is real flamenco.

Btw, are you a communist? Nothing against communism, just asking because of your avatar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 16:40:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
Instead of making it unnecessarily tricky, why do you guys arrange together beforehand to avoid any bad surprise during a performance?

Sure we do that too, but once you get to a certain level, that becomes extremely boring, and since the tradition is designed to try this type of improvisation, it’s greatly preferred by everyone at that level.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 17:28:45

Piwin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2019 18:45:27

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

Talking about real flamenco, When your at a flamenco Juerga or party, obviously no one is going have a pre rehearsal and work everything out before hand. If you know accompaniment you can participate without knowing what some new guy is going to sing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2019 15:44:34

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

Here's Siguiriya de Triana. It starts with a bunch of rasgueados. What follows is the typical Siguiriya phrase. What we're gonna call this section at 0:06-0:20? It sounds like an intro. But in flamenco jargon it must have a certain name.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2020 23:52:31

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

Video not available.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2020 0:19:45

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Video not available.

Sorry about the link. This must work now. A wonderful falsetta at 0:21-0:45. After that the same section comes again before the singer starts ayeii.

http://www.ivoox.com/listen_mn_3446829_1.m4a?internal=HTML5

or

https://www.ivoox.com/pepe-el-culata-seguiriyas-triana-audios-mp3_rf_3446829_1.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2020 13:00:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
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From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

It’s called a falseta. It can be used or not at will. Sometimes at the request of the singer, but not always. In other words the singer could have started right after this rasgueados instead. It’s most typical to play falsetas in between letras. Ramon Montoya liked to do falsetas at the end after the final letra, which was a unique choice compared to what you hear since that time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 13:07:44

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It’s called a falseta.

I thought falseta was at 0:20-0:45. What is played before at 0:05-0:20 sounds like to me a rhythm section which functions like a hook of a song.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 14:30:27

RobF

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RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

Here’s another link that might work, the bunch of rasgueado at the very beginning is a pretty common intro, I didn’t realize it was a falsetta, either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 14:38:20

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to RobF)

The same game with a little variation. This time this intro lasts longer 0:00-0:30. After that from 0:30-0:49 must be falseta followed by the same intro but without rasgueado part (0:50-0:53).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 15:18:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

The same game with a little variation. This time this intro lasts longer 0:00-0:30. After that from 0:30-0:49 must be falseta followed by the same intro but without rasgueado part (0:50-0:53).

Ok, no. Here is what it’s called. Llamada (that’s all the rasgueados on the A chord). Then two basic compases (rhythm guitar which is the same thing you hear when he is singing, it’s not an “intro”). Falseta 1 (what you wrongly believe is a thematic intro, or part of it with the basic compas.), falseta 2 (more involved guitar music section). Falseta 1 and 2 are played back to back, but he could have bookended by playing a llamada or basic compas between. After falseta 2 he plays one basic compas of siguiriyas rhythm and the singer begins on the next compas the “temple” or warm up with “tiri tiri ay ay”, underneath which is continuous basic compas. The llamada is at 1:24. Then one compas and then falseta 3...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 15:29:34

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Falseta 1 and 2 are played back to back, but he could have bookended by playing a llamada or basic compas between.

Thanks for the clarification. How do you distinguish falseta 1 from 2?
I would have said there's one falseta instead of 2.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 21:57:22

RobF

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RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for walking through it like that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2020 22:52:14

JasonM

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Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to RobF)

I didn’t know the rasgueado at the start was a llamada. So the singer generally comes in after that? Unless you want to trick them and start another falseta?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 1:35:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

How do you distinguish falseta 1 from 2?

A falseta idea will resolve at tonic usually. The musical idea concluded and a new idea (starting with octaves) began. The octave idea had nothing to do with the previous phrase and worse hangs unresolved so it continues... the same falseta goes on a different direction however it was needed to resolve the octaves thing, so it’s meant to go together.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 3:26:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I didn’t know the rasgueado at the start was a llamada. So the singer generally comes in after that? Unless you want to trick them and start another falseta?

No, there are no rules about it. The singer could have started while he was tuning/check chords or during the falseta if he is a jerk. The llamada is only needed at the end of the letra. But the typical thing is a guitar statement to set the mood. Could be a falseta only, or compas only, or only llamadas. Or a mix of the three as we see here. It doesn’t matter .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 3:39:14

devilhand

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RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

At 0:17-0:31 falseta 1 and at 0:31-0:49 Falseta 2?

As for llamada I thought the singer would start to sing or do his temple right after llamada? This was not the case in both examples above.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 14:10:42

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

As for llamada I thought the singer would start to sing or do his temple right after llamada? This was not the case in both examples above.

I don’t understand this game...when they blew the whistle I thought the guy with the ball was supposed to toss it into the basket. What’s all the running and dribbling about?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 14:32:45

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I don’t understand this game

It's not a game. 24hrs a day is too short for playing games.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 14:43:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

It's not a game.

It’s possible you will never learn until you change your way of thinking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 15:38:48

Morante

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to devilhand)

Eschuchame Dodo

Come to Andalucia and try to accompany a cantaor. Por seguiriyas would be easiest since it has only a couple of chords. But you would have to listen closely to the cantaor to know when to play them, and forget all the rules.

In the meantime, stop acting like an expert and try to learn the basics.

Everybody has to start, but usually with some humility. Asi se aprende.

Un abrazo

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 16:32:30

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: The structure of palos (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I don’t understand this game...when they blew the whistle I thought the guy with the ball was supposed to toss it into the basket. What’s all the running and dribbling about?

I didn't expect such reaction from you. Your reaction was as if my question pissed you off because I rejected your answer and kept asking questions. This is not true. I asked a final question about that matter because I felt it's worth asking. You're a teacher. I'm sure your students' reaction would be the same as mine if you reacted to their questions in the same way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2020 19:11:14