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Relationship / origin of palos
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin)
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Sixty-five years ago when I began to study flamenco I came across various versions of the "tree" representation of the ancestry of various palos. They disagreed in detail, at times in principle. None were supported by historical documentation. They relied upon the oral histories supplied by flamenco artists.
The game called "telephone" in America illustrates the unreliability of oral transmission. The players sit in a circle. One player whispers a short sentence to the player to one side, who whispers it to the next player, and so on, until the sentence comes back to the originator. If there are as many as five or six players, the sentence has been altered in transmission, sometimes humorously. Anyone who has played the game gives due respect to "oral history": very little.
For many years the earliest written sources for "flamencología" were from the 19th century. The writers were folklorists or collectors of letras. Not being trained musicians, there were no musical transcriptions. Palos were described in terms of the metrical form of their letras with only vague descriptions of music or dance.
Once flamenco was brought into universities by left wing professors in the mid 1970s, it began to attract the attention of formally trained musicologists, who based their historical narratives on written musical documentation.
A product of this kind of academic endeavor is "La llave de la musica flamenca" by the brothers David and Antonio Hurtado Torres, which I read several months ago.
The Hurtados trace the Fandango back to musically notated examples from the early 18th century. They cite documentary evidence of its African and Afroamerican origin. They point out that their was a fairly large population of slaves, of African birth or descent, in Sevilla in the 16th century. They cite frequent legal prohibitions of the performance of Fandango, in common with other musical forms of origen negro.
Furthermore, they derive the 19th century emergence of soleá from the earlier forms of polo and jácara. Modern transcriptions of jácara are readily available from the works of the 17th century guitarist Santiago de Murcia.
The Hurtados scrupuluously follow academic discipline, with full citations, footnotes and bibliography. They also include a long chapter of musical scores and a CD of early recordings.
My only real criticism is that they sometimes assert that certain forms (flamenco or pre-flamenco) did not exist prior to the earliest documentation found so far. Of course, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
But they reliably contradict the pre-1970s flamencología often enough to throw the whole corpus into serious doubt.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 18 2019 21:09:27
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edguerin
Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin)
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I'm inclined to agree with the "telephone" approach (here in Germany the game's called "silent mail" = "Stille Post"). To my understanding - although I haven't been at it quite as long as Richard 😊 - the palos siguiriya, soleá, toná and tango are the basic forms, which more or less is what's depicted in the diagrams. But to relate tonás (or tonadas, which is what Jason describes) with the "cantes autóctonos" and the "cantiñas" in the way shown in the graphs doesn't seem to make sense, and I wasn't able to find any information where that idea emerged.
Or maybe I'm reading them wrong, and toná, fandango and romance aren't supposed to be related to the individual palo-families but are simply meant to be seen as foundation for ALL further development. So yes, they'd be the seed of the tree (or perhaps the soil in which it grows?), but not part of the trunk or main branches ...
_____________________________
Ed
El aficionado solitario
Alemania
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Date Oct. 19 2019 9:42:37
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin)
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Well basically when you can actually sing some of these melodies a different picture appears. At least if you care to draw musical conclusions, which not many flamenco artists need bother with. Here is how i see things:
Saeta->tona->martinete/debla etc->siguiriyas(fast->slow)/cabales
Romances->buleria->solea/jaleo->tango->tiento->tanguillo*->rumba*
Fandango(line A)huelva styles and sevillanas*———————(oddly these took long to evolve)———->naturales (personal versions, free style or with other compas treatment)
Fandango (line B) ->verdiales/rondeña/jabera/fandango de lucena—> cantes levantes
Cantes levantes- malagueña-> granaina-> cantes de La Mina (Minera, Taranta, Taranto, cartagenera,levantica)
Jota->Cantiñas->Alegria Romera mirabra tiri tiri tran pinini->bulerias de Cadiz all with compas treatment of solea or buleria.
*= depends on what specific melody is sung as these forms might be referring to specific songs not FORMS, and sometimes outside of what we consider flamenco vs folk music. Sevillanas has flamenco elements in common w fandango but is always outside of flamenco proper.
Serrania- polo caña etc use compas treatment of solea but are similar to levantes cantes, melody wise but not form wise. Liviana, serrana same idea but with siguiriyas compas treatment.
Compas treatments : solea, Buleria, tango, tiento, tanguillo(zapateado for example), abandolao. Examples fandango por solea, or Taranto para baile uses tiento type compas.
Other songs are not really forms but specific songs that only have a single lyric set which might get hacked up and mixed but not really open ended forms as the rest above. Including caracoles Alegria de Córdoba guajiras (solea or buleria compas) colombiana tanguillo de Cadiz etc. Farruca and Tangos de malaga might also be included however Tangos de malaga has a form based style. Both get either tango tiento rumba etc compas treatment.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 19 2019 15:40:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Jota->Cantiñas->Alegria Romera mirabra tiri tiri tran pinini->bulerias de Cadiz all with compas treatment of solea or buleria.
Ok, made a profound realization yesterday. I was reading a booklet inside a CD where they were talking about the “Fandango de Cadiz”, of which was referenced in some literature in 1785, and supposedly preserved by some folks near Sevilla, this melody appeared to be the roots of the familiar Alegrias melody of today. I started messing around, and while not the lyrical structure however most of the melodies in Cantiñas family fit the fandango form! It’s pretty crazy now it’s very obvious to me, even though the trad accompaniment completely disguises it. Only a few melodic notes require alteration here or there, or phrasing of the words. So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms. Even caracoles has some obvious fandango elements preserved in its melody, and it’s the unique one in the family that resolves to phrygian. So I would also throw that one back in there.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 6 2019 13:11:02
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beni2
quote:
So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms. Even caracoles has some obvious fandango elements preserved in its melody, and it’s the unique one in the family that resolves to phrygian. So I would also throw that one back in there.
Hi Ricardo. Does the Fandango de Cadiz melody predate recording technology? Do the Cantinas melodies fit because their meter is similar? Which Fandango melody specifically serves as the root and for which alegrias melody (some begin on a different scale degree and have a different tessitura)?
I agree that you should publish because scholarly articles tend to be written by scholar NON-practitioners, although that is beginning to change. You should also send anything to scholar-practitioners for review. A few people with scholarly and flamenco backgrounds come to mind if you decide you have the time.
Interesting stuff.
Fandangos de Cadiz
http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/264
This is just one example but I am not convinced of a connection. Researching...
So the description I read was talking about a reference to this fandango in the year 1785, obviously before recordings. The point of the article was that an aficionado discovered some people near Sevilla were singing it and claimed to have preserved it, and his observation was that it sounded similar to Alegrias of today. Not clear WHAT they were singing and whether the example given on that site is the exact same melody or not. But all that is beside the point that several Cantiñas melodies CAN fit the Fandango FORM with minor alterations. For example, Camaron famous letras:
Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Cañones de Artilleria....now here the melody drops down to B natural. If you replace the ONE NOTE with what the fandango de Cadiz does (Bb-A), but keep the ENTIRE REST OF THE MELODY UN TOUCHED, it’s a perfect second line resolution to F major.
Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto (C-G)
Aunque me Cuesta La vida (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto, Aunque me Cue... (C-F)
(Cue)sta La vida (F-E)
I understand the lyrics are not functioning like Fandango, but please note that except for ONE NOTE in the second line, the melody notes and phrasing/timing can work completely unchanged when we replace alegrias chords with fandango chords, outlining the structure underneath the melody.
The other melody you know of alegrias that instead starts on tonic (C) and drops down (to G), actually functions totally un changed as the final melodic note of the Second line and 4th line are both F natural, meaning the first time you play F chord, second time the G7, and the final resolve which repeats lyrically, again, you see drops to E natural, meaning the first time is G-C chords, then the last time your F-E resolution just like fandangos, and the example above.
Playing around with other melodies, buleria de cadiz, the colatilla, etc, you can see similar ways of bringing in the fandango harmonic structure underneath the melody. Of course some are way more of a stretch than others, but my point is that unlike Solea melodies or Siguiriyas melodies, these songs in the major key seem to have evolved OUT of the fandango form type phrasing. I think the first thing to happen was probably the second sung line that pulls to F major was replaced by G7 (already we see some fandango based melodies doing this such as Jabera), and finally some guitar player didn’t bother to resolve to E for the final phrase and went back to C because it still harmonized just as many fandangos do going back to C despite the voice singing E. I would think later the melodies such as buleria de Cadiz or tir tir tran tran type melodies reflected this as well by dropping down below E to C for the resolutions.
Again please note that Caracolos is a closer fit to fandango form as you have your “cafe de union.....Tato y Juan Leon” phrase which is almost exactly your C7-F, F-E conclusion of Fandango. Back to your Fandango de Cadiz example, you can hear the “como reluces....te queiro yo...” note for note melodic phrases in there. Again, I wouldn’t want to go through note by note to try and match up what came from where because after all it’s just 7 notes getting mixed around and of course you will find totally unrelated exact phrases. I am more concerned about the over all general structure here and how these songs get lumped together and categorized for the sake of learning.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 7 2019 12:55:03
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2)
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Metaphor theory emerged in the last 20 yrs or so. As a sub branch of the study of embodied cognition it has changed the way we understand culture, cognition, language, etc.
Flamenco charts tend to use a biological metaphor, often in the form of phylogenetic trees. The jaleo begat the soleá begat the "x." However, flamenco palos are not biological entities. It is possible that a subgenre borrows a melody but puts it in a different chord structure, which itself might be borrowed from an altogether different palo.
Other metaphors have been proposed to describe the mixed origins of a musical genre.
To bring several threads together one could say that the solea gets the descending tetrachord from lament genres and the passacaglio/ciaccona. More directly, it is preceded by the "soledad," the jaleo [don't think jaleo extremeño], and the fandango. These influences ARE documented although the arguments are not definitive or absolute.
Furthermore, the myth that the cante preceded the toque or baile is beginning to be put to rest. Many genres were danceable FIRST, then turned into cante pa'lante.
PV
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Date Nov. 8 2019 22:10:44
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