Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans

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timk

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018

Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans

Hi there Luthiers!
Let me start by saying I have read extensively in the archives about scale length but haven't found the information I'm looking for. Maybe I'm a dummy :)
I should also mention that I am a complete beginner and gathering materials for my first build. The most cost effective kit appears to be from Maderas Barber here: https://maderasbarber.com/tonewood/es/kits-prefabricados/2756-kit-guitarra-flamenca-modelo-lucena.html

I should alsoalso mention that this site has been invaluable for research and entertainment. Sometimes reading the Blackshear, Anders, and Estebanana (and many others) can be inspirational or frustrating depending on the topic and their opinions.

I believe you all make wonderful guitars/art. So, a big thank you to everyone that is free with their information!

Anyway, I shouldn't mind messing it up along the way except for lamenting my lost time, as long as it looks like a guitar and has the right string height and correct intonation. Therein lies my question(s). Here is the info you'll need to answer it: The kit includes a preshaped neck for a 650mm scale length, yet guitar plans for flamenco typically have longer scales lengths per luth.org at 655mm - 660mm. The neck may be preslotted.

Can a 656mm scale plan (2003 Reyes) be used with the described neck?
Do I move the bridge 6mm further from the nut?
Does this make the guitar sound like a turd?

Should I just forget the kit and buy a neck blank and carve my own?
Am I being to critical and should just buy and build the dang thing?

Thanks again...
Tim

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2019 13:21:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

quote:

Can a 656mm scale plan (2003 Reyes) be used with the described neck?

I just finished a guitar, 655MM Reyes style, with a 650MM neck and I don't recommend it. It gave me all kinds of trouble at the head/neck area, where the nut is placed.

The guitar turned out well but the trouble I went through was not worth it.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2019 13:56:41

timk

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thanks for the speedy reply, Tom. Would you recommend buying a neck blank or are there 650mm scale flamenco plans available? I haven't seen one...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2019 14:05:53

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timk

Thanks for the speedy reply, Tom. Would you recommend buying a neck blank or are there 650mm scale flamenco plans available? I haven't seen one...

You might check with Tim Olsen at www.luth.org they have many guitar plans that you could convert easily enough; some that are very close, that would be compatible.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2019 21:24:22

timk

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I am so glad people take the time to answer questions that must have been asked many times before!

Now, when you say "you could convert" do you mean take a classical plan and alter the bracing to be the same as a flamenco plan (buy two plans) or take a 660mm plan and shrink it down to a 650mm scale plan (buy one plan).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2019 14:59:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

It's always better to work with a 650 plan to keep the neck in line. If you have a 650 neck then use a 650 plan. This makes things more simple to a beginner.

See if your supplier has a top pattern and neck to go with it, for a flamenco.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2019 22:55:35

timk

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I reached out to Mr Olsen at GAL and he enlightened me. Here is his response:

You mention that you want to follow Tom Blackshear’s Plan #53 – 2003 Manuel Reyes Flamenco. You want to modify it from 660mm to 650mm. Take a look at Plan #46 – 1977 Miguel Rodríguez, Jr. Classic, also by Tom Blackshear. He draws the instrument for 660mm, but also presents a modified version for 650mm. In the 650 version, he leaves the entire body outline unchanged except for the curve above the waist. He brings the shoulders of the upper bout in by 5mm. He also leaves the bracing and the position of the bridge unchanged. Then he shortens the scale by 10mm, meaning that the nut moves toward the bridge by 10mm. The 12th fret must stay at the body/neck join, so the distance from the nut to the 12th fret will decrease by 5mm. If your preshaped neck will allow that much slack, you are good to go. If not, just make a neck. That’s part of the fun. I would suggest that you get our Plan #46 – 1977 Miguel Rodríguez, Jr. Classic to study the modification.

I still didnt completely understand I asked Tim:

You talk of Tom only messing with the body dimensions and keeping the bracing the same. I assume it would be safe to use the Plan#53 bracing with the modifications made per Plan#46? Or were you thinking I build the classical (because I'm really shooting for a flamenca blanca, here). Can you tell I dont know how flexible or forgiving these things are? Some documents say how exacting and precise you need to be and others say "wing it, you'll be fine!".

And his second response, which completely clarified it for me:

I think it would work fine to start with the flamenco plan. Leave everything alone: all the cross bars and braces, the bridge, and the outline below the upper bout. Then change only the shape of the shoulders, such that the body-neck joint is 5mm closer to the bridge. The classical plan will show you how Tom B did that modification, as an example for you to follow. Then proceed to build it with the 650mm scale with the 12th fret on the neck-body joint. As long as the nut fits on your neck OK, you are good.

Ordering a copy of the plans and having them in hand also helped...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2019 21:26:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

Now that you think everything is together for building the guitar, remember that you will get into some building anomalies that will cause some frustration, as no guitar plan is absolutely perfect.

In this case, it's always best to have a teacher to help you through the troublesome areas that you don't anticipate.

If you choose the 2003 Reyes plan, then you might follow Jason's thread, with his build.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2019 19:27:53

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tim, sent you a PM but it might not have gone through as I kept getting error message.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2019 2:17:23

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

Tim,
I reread upthread and never noticed why you want to build a 650mm rather then the 655 or 660 as designed? Was it just the wood size in the kit?

I'm a new builder myself and just finished two at 666mm both are a personal best and built with Flamenco in mind. Still a long way from perfect. My first five were 650mm but I changed too many things at once, ya I know I know, with these two new ones to say how much the increase in scale length changed for the better.

I'm a remedial player at best so I can't honestly say longer is better. They certainly do have some magic my short scale guitars do not.

HR

ps. I do have a build thread over at the Delcamp forum if you are interested. Look for MK-IV Flamenco on the Luthier thread

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2019 4:52:05

timk

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to ernandez R)

Hi Jason,
Message received. Not sure what is going on with the PMs.

Hi Ernandez
The kits I purchased came with a 650mm precarved neck. I actually purchased two kits from maderasbarber.com. The first for me will be the one with pre-bent sides, joined top and back, preshaped bracing, etc. Kind of a lame beginning! The second kit is raw wood (minus preshaped neck) and I am much more excited to get moving on that when the kinks are worked out of the first kit. With both of those done, and if my wife lets me, I'll be starting from scratch for the third build.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2019 20:49:51

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Scale length, Kits, and Guitar Plans (in reply to timk)

Well, the neck doesn’t make any substantial difference. You can easily get the 2,5 mm with a different saddle slot.
If the fretboard is pre-slotted at 650 mm scale then you must adapt your plan to 650 by shortening your plantilla at the Upper bout.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2020 14:06:29