Discipline and Improvisation

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docco

Posts: 24
Joined: Oct. 11 2019

Discipline and Improvisation

Just is a little thought ... I think 1000 years later, classical guitar music is still the same, due to its discipline. But with the improvisation, how about the flamenco guitar music will be? Hearing Sabicas, then Luca, and now Jerónimo Maya, can you feel any effect of improvisation?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2019 19:14:55

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to docco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: docco

Just is a little thought ... I think 1000 years later, classical guitar music is still the same, due to its discipline. But with the improvisation, how about the flamenco guitar music will be? Hearing Sabicas, then Luca, and now Jerónimo Maya, can you feel any effect of improvisation?

There has been a steady and very extensive evolution of "classical guitar" music from the 16th century vihuelists to the composers of the 21st century. Furthermore, even though we have notated music from the 16th century, we don't really know how it sounded: the tempo, tone quality, soniquete....

While I never heard Sabicas play a palo the same way twice, I often heard the same falsetas, or evolved versions of the same falsetas as I had heard before.

I believe Paco and Jerónimo have often repeated pieces nearly verbatim. They innovate in composition, not nearly so much in live performance.

There may be an improvisational aspect to solo flamenco guitar, but in my experience it's not nearly to the same extent as in live jazz performance. One way to tell is that live jazz performances are fairly often not particularly great, while solo flamenco guitar from the pros is very seldom disappointing in conception or organization.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2019 19:36:02

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to docco)

If you watch live performances of some of the modern guys you won't hear the same thing played twice in different shows quite often. Vicente seems to always throw in some new intro's or little phrases and rhythmic variations on the fly and also meld pieces together from albums. Again it's not full bore jazz or jam band 10+ minute explorations but it's there.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2019 21:34:18

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2022 15:41:38

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2019 9:26:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to docco)

The improvisation in flamenco is pretty broadly explored when you get into cante accompaniment. It is sort of the polar opposite of jazz... changing melodies over a chord structure, however in flamenco we improvise the structure around a set melody. Sort of. Looking toward guitar solo, that’s different. There is a deliberate attempt to copy the Jazz way of improvisation with varying degrees of success. I will say the more that singers keep sucking at improvisation in flamenco, the quicker the art will die and become “classical”, not unlike baroque improvisation.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2019 13:49:06

mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to docco)

docco,

here is some improv going on:

Rycardo Moreno has some things worked out in this video, but you can tell he is really improvising especially when he makes little mistakes... Love it!

Another guy that is really good at improvising is Yago Santos. I took some classes with him, wished he improvised on stage, I think he sounds better when improvising. Yago knows his stuff too, studied at Berklee with some heavy weights.

suerte!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2019 17:00:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

quote:

One way to tell is that live jazz performances are fairly often not particularly great

Maybe you're not going to the right jazz performances...

Probably not.

As a kid trumpet player living in Washington DC in the 1950s my jazz buddies and I used our fake drivers' licenses to sneak into jazz clubs on the east coast. There was a terrible heroin epidemic going on at the time, which no doubt was the cause of quite a few dud performances.

I gradually lost active interest in jazz. The last big show I remember going to was in the late '60s, in Austin. Stan Getz came to town. With him he had a young Gary Burton on vibes, an equally Young Steve Swallow on bass, and an older drummer. The whole show was tight and excellent.

My then-new wife, a scholarship classical pianist commented afterward, "They were good, but you seem really excited."

I replied, "The last time I saw Getz he was strung out on dope, along with Chet Baker and Bob Brookmeyer. They showed up an hour late and just noodled around. It was terrible. Now Getz is clean and healthy, the drummer is another heroin survivor, and Getz is promoting excellent young players. Really cheers me up."

More recent players may have been capable of more consistent performances. Even in the '50s I never saw a bad performance by Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald or Dizzy Gillespie--among others.

Two of the real greats, Bird and Miles were inconsistent, but it may have been the dope.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2019 20:13:38

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Discipline and Improvisation (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

(in solo guitar) There is a deliberate attempt to copy the Jazz way of improvisation with varying degrees of success.

Tomatito played here two or three years ago, with several others in his group. For me his shot at jazz style improvisation wasn't particularly successful.

He brought Paloma Fantova along. He only allowed her to dance two numbers, one near the beginning of the performance, the other near the end. I thought it might have been to keep her from stealing the show. As far as I was concerned, she was worth the price of admission.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2019 20:24:59