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Flamenco is a language
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Piwin
Posts: 3556
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Flamenco is a language (in reply to docco)
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Leonard Bernstein famously drew parallels between music and Chomsky's "universal grammar" in his 1973 lectures The Unanswered Question, which are readily available on Youtube. While the comparison was at times somewhat lax, there were nonetheless some interesting insights. That there are similarities is rather obvious. Both have rules, standards and common practices with regards to grammar, "phonology", prosody, etc. There are teleological similarities as well (communication, expression, etc.). As far as communication between performers, there is a common distinction made between more improvisational forms and recitals. I believe this has been studied in neurosciences, the results being that performers drew on different cognitive abilities for each. I'd imagine the same is true for conversations vs. poetry recitals. What I often object to is when people say "music is a language", often saying things like "music is a language that transcends borders, cultures, etc." It seems to me that the difference between two musical genres, say, flamenco and gamelan, is just as pronounced as the difference between two languages, say English and Chinese. Communication across forms of music is not straightforward. Perhaps if more people understood this, understood that music is not one language, that each genre is a language in its own right, then the monumental task of creating "fusion" would be more carefully thought out and there would be less crap on the market. That said, maybe crappy fusion has a role to play. In the same way that neither docco nor I are native English speakers but can still communicate thanks to some form of "globish", so too can performers of different genres communicate with each other through crappy fusion. Though if we really wanted to express ourselves as best we can, then we would have to speak our own language(s) or take an approach to fusion that goes much further than simply using a genre of music as a superficial stepping stone to something else.
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Date Oct. 16 2019 8:11:22
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docco
Posts: 24
Joined: Oct. 11 2019
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RE: Flamenco is a language (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin Leonard Bernstein famously drew parallels between music and Chomsky's "universal grammar" in his 1973 lectures The Unanswered Question, which are readily available on Youtube. While the comparison was at times somewhat lax, there were nonetheless some interesting insights. That there are similarities is rather obvious. Both have rules, standards and common practices with regards to grammar, "phonology", semantics, etc. There are teleological similarities as well (communication, expression, etc.). As far as communication between performers, there is a common distinction made between more improvisational forms and recitals. I believe this has been studied in neurosciences, the results being that performers drew on different cognitive abilities for each. I'd imagine the same is true for conversations vs. poetry recitals. What I often object to is when people say "music is a language", often saying things like "music is a language that transcends borders, cultures, etc." It seems to me that the difference between two musical genres, say, flamenco and gamelan, is just as pronounced as the difference between two languages, say English and Chinese. Communication across forms of music is not straightforward. Perhaps if more people understood this, understood that music is not one language, that each genre is a language in its own right, then the monumental task of creating "fusion" would be more carefully thought out and there would be less crap on the market. That said, maybe crappy fusion has a role to play. In the same way that neither docco nor I are native English speakers but can still communicate thanks to some form of "globish", so too can performers of different genres communicate with each other through crappy fusion. Though if we really wanted to express ourselves as best we can, then we would have to speak our own language(s) or take an approach to fusion that goes much further than simply using a genre of music as a superficial stepping stone to something else. I like what you say: ".. that music is not one language, that each genre is a language in its own right, then the monumental task of creating "fusion" would be more carefully thought out and there would be less crap on the market ..." So, there are a lot of genres of music in the world. And one more is that why some genres of music are recognized by UNESCO as an Intangible Cultural (such as Flamenco and Argentina Tango) while the others are not? Do you agree with the UNESCO classification?
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Date Oct. 16 2019 18:21:03
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3457
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Flamenco is a language (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
What I often object to is when people say "music is a language", often saying things like "music is a language that transcends borders, cultures, etc." It seems to me that the difference between two musical genres, say, flamenco and gamelan, is just as pronounced as the difference between two languages, say English and Chinese. I couldn't agree more, Piwin. Having spent years living and working in our Embassies in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Jakarta, Indonesia, absorbing gamelan with the sinden, the female singer backed by the gamelan orchestra, while maintaining a love and understanding of flamenco, I can attest that, although each is a form of music, they are too different to be wrapped up together with the term "universal music." They are as different as English and Chinese. I will say, though, that flamenco is probably better understood as a musical form by a variety of cultures than is gamelan. This is probably the result of flamenco being a form of Western music, which is much better understood, even in a country like Japan, than is gamelan. In a totally different vein, music, especially Western music, has always been compared to mathematics. Bill
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Date Oct. 16 2019 20:34:59
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3423
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Flamenco is a language (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I agree with Bill Barkel. A couple of weeks ago the great Chinese classical guitarist Xuefei Yang played here in Austin. Her virtuousity was staggering. About hslf of her program was well known guitar pieces by Spanish composers, including a couple of popular arrangements of piano pieces. She also played a zambra by Niño Ricardo with very good flamenco technique, rare in classical guitarists. The other half was Chinese pieces, including her variations on folk songs, modern pieces written for Yang by prominent Chinese composers, and her guitar arrangements of pieces for pipa, the chinese plucked and strummed instrument. On the way out from the performance I passed Joe Williams, the guitar society's Composer in Residence and Artistic Director. I said, "If the structural organizing principles of their music are so radically different from ours, what do you suppose the rest of the culture is like?" Didn't the "music is a universal language" bit get started in the 19th century, maybe earlier? If so it seems to have been a eurocentric idea, put forward by people unacquainted with Indian, Japanese, Chinese, Malayo-Indonesian, and flamenco music. RNJ
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Date Oct. 17 2019 20:28:38
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