Practising with a metronome

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flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

Practising with a metronome

Just be interested in a few thoughts:

Once you've learnt say the content of a falseta do you nail it at one comfortable speed before varying it? Take my Solea as an example. I'm trying to nail down all my falsetas to 90. For sure some I can play quicker while others push me too much at that speed to maintain accuracy.

So I might try a complex falseta. Learn it, nail it at 70. Then try to speed it up. And when confident I can drop it into my 90 mix.

I ask in part because I note quite a few course tabs have varying suggested rates (within one course and within one palo).

I can see that if you are going to play with others (guitarists, dance, cante, percussion, etc.) you need to fit in. So is fixing too much on my comfortable speed something I should not over do?

Or do you find moving to any speed inside your comfort range a natural process because you've put in those metronome hours I've always tried to avoid?

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2019 9:35:52

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2022 15:46:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2019 11:08:35

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to El Burdo)

Thanks El Burdo. Very thought provoking. I've also heard back from my online prof Paco Costa who added that increasing the rate by just 2 or 3 once you have it perfectly nailed 10 times is enough.

quote:

if you can't play it slow, you'll never play it fast.

That's for sure.

Another thing I note is that melodic falsetas are easier to play than long sections of even picado, or repeated simple compas. I guess that may be connected with what you said. When you have a long section of repetition the brain has a chance to come into play. And with my brain that is never a good idea

Anyway I'll continue with my greatly increased metronome playing time and see if I note any increase in progress

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2019 7:54:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

My drum teacher said “practice doesn’t make perfect, practice makes permanent”. So you have to be careful with metronome practice too. I tend to lean towards “medium speed” practice for a lot of things. The reason is I find a sort of lower limit on certain phrases where if you drop below the tempo threshold it no longer feels the same. Simply put, if you play 8th notes of any type, but slow them down, they eventually get so slow that you are actually feeling them as quarter notes.

I don’t think it makes sense to learn some music phrase as quarter notes, then gradually speed them up until they are 16th note triplets or whatever they are actually supposed to sound and feel like. It’s ok to have a narrow range of tempos to get used to, say 10bpm or so, but what I advocate is to loop a small chunk of a phrase at a relative “medium” tempo.... so that your body and mind are getting used to the actual feel of the phrase as it will sound once you’ve got it all together. Don’t worry about compas cycles and such when doing this, only basic tempo and beat. I might loop 2 or 4 beats of bulerias at or near tempo of a short passage, knowing later as I connect it to the rest of the phrase the 12 count structure will emerge.

In regards to functionality of falsetas for baile, well again certain falsetas lose all the feeling at a drastically reduced tempo so I simply avoid using them, eventually creating a separate bag of “slowlea”, falsetas and compas to be distinguished from my normal solea stuff for cante or solo guitar. That might go for other palos too where dancers intentionally are using slow tempo for drama and contrast to the fast sections later.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2019 14:29:07

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to Ricardo)

Cheers Ricardo. At the moment I'm just trying the metronome with stuff I know really well and can play with no mistakes if I take it slowly enough. The thing that I find most difficult is not playing double arpeggios or tremolos too fast.

quote:

certain falsetas lose all the feeling at a drastically reduced tempo

Great to here as I've spotted that

Somethings just seem to have a natural pace. I have one Fandangos and one solea falseta that if I speed them up or slow them down they just don't do it for me

Anyways back to practise. Cheers both.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2019 20:04:52

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

Just a further thought on this. I quite often use a metronome with embedded compas. For example the metronome offers a 12 beat traditional solea with accents on 3, 6, 8, 10. 12. At other times I just use a plain beat.

My prof the other day suggested that it was a good idea to use the compas metronome mode as this overtime instils the compas in your brain. But equally I can see it lets you get away without playing the accented beats.

I've decided to go half and half, but wondered what others thought about using the compas metronome (if you get me).

Any thoughts anyone?

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2019 19:47:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

Compas metronome = training wheels. Gotta take em off sooner than later

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2019 18:41:56

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to Ricardo)

I was actually thinking I'd pay a guy to follow me around knocking out compas on a cajon every time I picked up a guitar

My prof de Jerez thought if you kept hearing the compas it would sink in over time. Then when you take the wheels away you'd not fall over. I guess what is important is to play the compas whether it is there or not.

But thanks Ricardo for the realism

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2019 20:06:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

I was actually thinking I'd pay a guy to follow me around knocking out compas on a cajon every time I picked up a guitar

My prof de Jerez thought if you kept hearing the compas it would sink in over time. Then when you take the wheels away you'd not fall over. I guess what is important is to play the compas whether it is there or not.

But thanks Ricardo for the realism

The truth is the compas, whether 12 or 4 or whatever, has all kinds of accents patterns and phrases, not unlike language. It’s a disservice to force students to think there is only one set accent pattern to internalize. What is more important is to develop a sense and feel of subdivisions and groove. A basic click teaches or helps with this, whereas a complex accent pattern might confuse the student that ends up chasing accents hit or miss, with no soniquete. Think of something like 12,3,6,8,10, as an emergent property that results from smaller simpler elements that are executed correctly.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2019 11:24:11

mrstwinkle

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

Have you tried something like the free 'A compas' app? I find it helps to have something compas specific to play along with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2019 12:20:22

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle)

quote:

Have you tried something like the free 'A compas' app?

yup tx. I looked at 'A Compas' but prefer 'Compas Flamenco' as it offers a bigger range of palos/compases.

But while fun having a backing, as Ricardo puts the question, "is it a long term good thing?

I tend to mix it up sometimes using just a consistent beat, and other times a palo based compas.

But now (almost 300 days into my 'learn flamenco guitar in 500 days' I'm looking at more complexity and feel I need to start focussing on those rhythms that come so naturally to my gitano neighbours.

Don't get me wrong. Wouldn't swap my life to be a gitano but maybe a transfusion of a few litres of their blood might help

ps: I said to my prof in Valencia that I needed to get the compas right as I didn't want gitanos saying 'for a foreigner he plays well but without compas'. He assured me there was no chance of a gitano saying 'for a foreigner he plays well'

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2019 14:48:15

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The truth is the compas, whether 12 or 4 or whatever, has all kinds of accents patterns and phrases, not unlike language. It’s a disservice to force students to think there is only one set accent pattern to internalize. What is more important is to develop a sense and feel of subdivisions and groove.

I finally got why you talk about compas tracks as "potty training"!

so many questions on foro about the "right" way to count, the "right" single pattern of accents for this or that palo.... I think this paragraph pretty much answers all those questions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2019 17:27:57

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The truth is the compas, whether 12 or 4 or whatever, has all kinds of accents patterns and phrases, not unlike language.

But when we teach language we start with simple phrasal structures. Then we build the variations, the subtleties, the feel, ………………….

I can't see how you can successfully teach complexity on day one without loosing most pupils very quickly.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2019 19:26:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

quote:

The truth is the compas, whether 12 or 4 or whatever, has all kinds of accents patterns and phrases, not unlike language.

But when we teach language we start with simple phrasal structures. Then we build the variations, the subtleties, the feel, ………………….

I can't see how you can successfully teach complexity on day one without loosing most pupils very quickly.

As I stated several times already.... the seeming complexity is an EMERGENT property that comes out of doing the very simple things correctly in sequence. You want the complexity to be a feeling, not a mental exercise. Here is an example:

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2019 21:50:19

mrstwinkle

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to mark indigo)

I did some classes in Sevilla last year and asked a question about compas. Answer was, if you can't hear it in your head you shouldn't be playing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2019 9:42:17

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle)

quote:

I did some classes in Sevilla last year and asked a question about compas. Answer was, if you can't hear it in your head you shouldn't be playing it.

So a pre-requisite of the course was to identify compas by ear presumably?

To be serious, IMHO. hearing it is one thing. Playing it takes, for most mere mortals, a constructive process building on basics, constructing more complex things from the basics, and finally drilling it till it becomes second nature. And only then, at a high level can one go on a self-learning creative journey of adventure. A level that, as commented on this foro recently, is rarely attained.

As with the comparison of language learning offered before, there are basically two approaches. Learn as children (in general thought up to the age of ten), and learn like a muture student, Both are distinct.

Many children using the former method do not ever get a good hold of their language. While overseas students often become fluent.

I assume Mrstwinkle (love it ) that he did answer your question? And would be great to know what the question was?

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2019 13:20:51

Filip

Posts: 403
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Practising with a metronome (in reply to flyeogh)

I've been playing guitar for some 16 years, most of the time without metronome. But there was a time around 6 years ago when I sat down to learn Percusion Flamenca by PdL, with a metronome. I started with 60bpm, I would learn a falseta with that tempo and when I had it I would move to the next falseta; then I would increase the tempo. It took me around two months to reach 120bpm with the whole song, and I am convinced that that experience had made me much better guitar player and had made my technique much much better than it was before. Most of the time now I do not use metronome in playing, but I sometimes use it when I am learning new falsetas which definitely improves playing and technique, at least I see the difference.

Ricardo's method as shown with Tomatito falseta is very good for me, I learnt parts of Guardian Angel like that. I don't play it regularly anymore, but even now I can play it fairly well and haven't forgotten it. What's interesting is that I can use the same method for warming up and the difference when I play the intro before and after only 5-10 minutes warming can be huge, I have the feeling I get quite a boost especially for the time invested. Currently I am working on Niquelao, I started learning it a few days ago.

I also think that starting slowly with a metronome or foot tap (but not too slowly as Ricardo mentioned) is in general very good warm up method. For example, I would start with a falseta, sometimes even whole song, with a metronome slowed down. As early as within 20-30 minutes working like that I gain much better control of my hands and fingers and I have the feeling of the big boost. Whatever I play afterwards is, as far as I can note, much better played and controlled.

I do struggle with compas however. With Rio de la Miel falseta for example, I started with a metronome only on accented beats and compas-wise I was playing fine but I noticed that I did not have full control of what was going on in the middle. Then I put a sound tick on every beat and got the falseta perfectly well but I could not play it very well if I used compas metronome, I just got lost. Still working on that.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2019 11:38:23