RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards

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El Burdo

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2022 15:45:19

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2019 15:02:40

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

but not if you are napoleon or someone deceased I would imagine

Well, the Wikipedia entry for Napoleon Bonaparte is pretty much all present tense:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoléon_Ier

The "historic present tense" isn't based on any real connection to the present (which you could imagine would be the case if we only used it for people who are still alive). Rather, it is based on an attempt to create a more vivid connection between past events and the reader.

It's a bit of a mess though as it is subject to all sorts of exceptions where other components in the sentence will lead that present tense to be interpreted differently than was intended. It's not uncommon to see a biography written entirely in present tense except for a few sentences that demand past tense.

For instance, for the francophiles in the room, one such exception would be:

"Erik Satie a toujours vécu dans la misère."
Using historic present tense, it would read:
"Erik Satie vit toujours dans la misère".
The problème here is that "toujours" shifts the meaning of the verb.
Depending on context, it could mean "Erik Satie is still alive, and still living in poverty", or it could mean "at that specific moment in time, he was still living in poverty" (i.e., no comment on what might have happened to him after that specific moment. For all we know he might have won the lottery the next day and spent the rest of his life drinking caipirinhas on the deck of his 30-foot yacht) but it could never mean what it is intended to mean, namely "Erik Satie was a pauper his entire life".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2019 16:21:04

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Piwin)

Yes, the same problems can occasionally be found in English, although obviously far less often.

A couple of years ago I tried to read a new biography (by Philip J. Corr) of the psychologist Hans Eysenck (who is sorely in need of a a good, up-to-date and unbiased one).

However, the author had misguidedly tried to write it in the present tense (by his own admission, to make it more immediate); and when it became necessary to refer to times before or after the current point of the narrative, it became unintelligible.

I had to give it up after a couple of chapters.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2019 17:52:33

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to El Burdo)

I think I know what Bill is talking about. Changes to institutions like the Merriam-Webster dictionary that were inconceivable 30 years ago now happen at warp speed. The constant accusations and browbeating that occurred starting in the 1960’s has lead to an increase in the pace of these changes. It’s been an evolving form of tyranny of the minority -- masquerading as a need for social change based upon the pretext of civil rights violations. Like a spinning roulette wheel no one knows when or where it will land, its emotional intensity or the extent of its destruction. A young democrat in congress is openly referring to herself as a “socialist.” Should the older generation of democrats expect to be “denounced” in the future?

The royal “we” was used as a singular pronoun by nobility centuries ago and my main objection is based on this practice. Because I’m aware of this actual, historical usage I tend to perceive a person as arrogant when using it to refer to himself -- and they, or “they,” probably are being arrogant by using it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 3:18:38

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to El Burdo)

The usage of ‘they’ by transgenders is an effort to give visibility to a group that perceives itself as invisible. It’s not really about sexuality, but about personhood. That said I find using They to be difficult and anti logical for my language brain and I would rather that they coined a new independent term for themselves.

I will say they in the social situation that calls for it, rather than insult a person by using another word which in their mind negates their personhood. However I don’t like it conceptually or how Webster picked it up so quickly. Call me an old fart.

But until a better word comes to the fore, calling them they is the format. What I object to most, is that ‘they’ isn’t very individual as far as noting personhood, this is what disturbs me conceptually and makes me not want to use it. It confuses me greatly as to whether I’m talking about one person of many people. My head doesn’t wrap around this naturally and I think language should have a logic that is intuitive, not counter intuitive. I don’t understand why we don’t say for example - he - she or trans

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 4:29:18

Neil

Posts: 78
Joined: Oct. 29 2018

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I don’t understand why we don’t say for example - he - she or trans

There is a difference between transgender and non-binary. Most transgender people identify as either male or female and should be addressed as such, while non-binaries don’t fall into either of those two categories.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 6:12:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Neil)

I disagree, ‘trans’ literally means non aligned, beyond, out of distance from etc. The concept of something or someone that is trans aspiring s to be beyond border. Example is the notion of transatlantic, transavantgarde, transsexual. All these terms and uses of trans don’t negate the non binary from being passed classification. Trans as a suffix creates the opposite condition, that of being beyond this or that gender. The problem is really that one cannot dictate to another what constitutes how they conceptualize their own personhood. All I’m saying is that ‘they’ was an unimaginative and difficult choice when there are a multiplicity if ways to declare personhood that are more linguistically elegant.

My old girlfriend was a shrink and her practice was based very much in transgender issues because when she was doing her clinical work in school no one else wanted to take it on. The professor assigned the cases to her and she’s now considered an authority. In that community there’s not total consensus or diametric opposition to expressing alternate ways of how to declare personhood. In Rainbow Grocery a store in San Francisco that has some 150 people in its employ there is a pronoun chart in the staff room. It lists all the workers with their individually preferred pronoun.

If it were me working at Rainbow I’d asked to be called Her Lordship Slayer of Dimensions, because why not?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 9:36:47

Neil

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 10:18:03

Neil

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Joined: Oct. 29 2018

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to El Burdo)

Replied but deleted as we are in danger of going way off topic!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 10:23:15

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to El Burdo)

When my lordship has decided to grace this foro with her presence there is no such thing as off topics.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 11:15:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

and it is being imposed on the larger population by the small group who considers itself "victimized" by the English language as it stands.

I think these non-binary transgender bending queer folk have, biologically speaking, been around for millennia and have always been forced to conform to some uncomfortable verbal description of themselves, and are now just recently finding ways to change that dynamic. It’s not like they are a newly evolved minority group of humans imposing their selfish desires on the apathetic yet surprised majority. It’s time to move forward already, these are only words as Carlin once pointed out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 12:53:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo’s point is completely true, fact is in non Christian cultures ( and this is a big complex subject) gender fluidity was part of cultures. Non single gender individuals occupied special niches and roles within the culture. Sometimes shamanic or judicial. Being non single gender created metaphorical relationships with culture- the judicial aspect arises from the idea that a person expressing more than one gender at a time also expresses balance between genders. It’s found in Africa and pre Columbian cultures.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 14:21:10

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Is it standard, can you tell me? If I were to write a summary of my career in French (for example), should I do it this way?

Probably a biography for a performance program, literary work or lecture, but not if you are napoleon or someone deceased I would imagine

"Memórias Póstumas de Bras Cubas¨ by Machado de Asis begins along the lines of: I am writing as a posthumous author. Not as one who has written and then died, rather as one who has died and is now writing. In certain respects, death alters one's point of view.

Bras Cubas adheres largely to the past tense in Brazilian Portuguese.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 18:28:52

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Peer reviewed papers have been published showing that a person's "conservative" or "progressive" political position can reliably be detected by functional magnetic resonance scans of the brain's reaction to certain standardized stimuli.

The population of experimental subjects seemed not to be strongly biased one way or the other. This makes a kind of sense to me. "Progressives" encourage political experimentation, while "conservatives" resist dangerously rapid change. A balance between the two tendencies seems to me likely to be an advantage in successful cultural evolution. However the present polarization in the USA carries the disjunction to a dangerous level.

I don't presume to ascribe a political philosophy to my friend Bill, but his view on this aspect of language appears simply to counter a tendency toward too rapid change.

Infrequently I lament the loss of the earlier meaning of "gay," a useful and attractive word which is nearly bereft of a modern equivalent, but it doesn't really annoy me.

In the context of my extended family I am well to the left politically, but we seem able still to respect--even to love--one another.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 18:53:03

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Non single gender individuals occupied special niches and roles within the culture

I doubt many people today would consider that a step up from the current situation. Yay they finally recognize me as X gender, now I've got to go do whatever tiny niche job they've set apart for me... I was personally under the impression that the desired outcome was the exact opposite of this.

My own misgivings have to do with whether they believe encouraging/imposing new language will improve social acceptance. I tend to think that it won't. And if I'm right, what that means is that once everyone is called by their desired pronoun, the cursor won't have moved one iota, so they will be left looking for something else to change in the hopes of improving social acceptance.

I'll call people whatever they want, your Lordship Slayer of Dimensions, I'm just not convinced it'll change anything, nor that me calling you that gives any indication that I have a better opinion of you. After all, you reek of bright green stink bug and mustard. I can smell it over the Internet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 21:27:03

El Burdo

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2022 15:44:44

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 22:14:34

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

I just finished reading Une langue venue d'ailleurs by Akira Mizubayashi. The author is a Japanese academic who began studying French at age 19 and now writes exclusively in French (rather well I might add). He describes how French was a breath of fresh air for him, a way out of the highly codified linguistic system of his own country, a way out of what he called his own "linguistic prison".

I found his book rather intriguing, since my own impression is that French, at least in literature, is almost lethally rigid, stuffy to the point of asphyxiation. The preservation of certain standards has all but crushed creativity. Amongst contemporary authors, those who don't follow those standards are painful to read, and those who do fail to connect in any real way with the reader. Only a handful manage to navigate those waters.

Matter of perspective, I suppose. Some are in rigid structures and want more flexibility, some are in flexible structures and want more rigidity. So goes it.

Following French literature debates, as a writer (now seeking writer´s asylum abroad from the blocked German market) I am all in envy.

Over there still exists idealism with publishing folks who do support the special subject, avantgarde and intelligentsia, whereas in Germany it prostitutes to a self-generated market demand for infantile and irrelevant / superficial context.

In the same time the oh so PC public fraction is enforcing once again irrelevant language bending like generating all the common idioms like for relating and professionals (like say “someone, respective, carpenter, miller” etc.) which traditionally are presented as male in female form too, in order to honor the other gender. So silly, if not cynical, whilst in practice females are still undervalued and underpaid.

Superflous BS contextually, while never getting tired of messing up the once most precise language in diverse ways (starting the predetermined altering campaign with a stupid reform, instigated by publishing lobbyists who by that and common bribe succeeded with initiating paying reprint of dictionaries and school books).
We are talking about a new age of pseudo PC disease (in all fields / not just language) that should be well described as trendy “empty significance”.

Which again is not to say that non-binaries couldn´t or shouldn´t be having their own article, but that using “they” for a single person other than for your old-fashioned Royal Highness is evidently stupid.

Yours truly for one is all with the TO in regard of this topic.
Messing up a language without the backing of a lasting popular usus is a cultural nonsense and crime. More so when diluting semantics. Precise and / or lyrical semantic ways are the treasure of (a) language. Cadgers and fools should stay away from it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 22:16:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to Piwin)

I was making an observation from a historical or human nature context, pointing out that there is continuity through millennia for a personhood to exist separate from male or female. It was more in support of what Ricardo wrote.
There is also a notable erasure of third gender concepts when. Christianity develops into its modern homophobic form. The early church was different.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2019 23:52:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to El Burdo)

It’s reassuring that the Isle of Misfit Boys still provides anchorage for its jovially specious mascot. Where else can the crazy alight with such acceptance?

Well anyway, I just wanted to say hello to Bill, long time no communication. I always enjoy Bills topic selection and admire both his temerity to broach the controversial in today’s culture and for the equal time spent listening to a diverse field of opinions before responding. Shucks, I wish I could hang out and throw my best new insults. Time narrows into a short hallway with a door at the end.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2019 0:45:45

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks to my good amigos Richard and Stephen for their "honorable mentions."

Richard, I would no doubt register on the "conservative" side of the spectrum on the magnetic resonance scan, as I have always considered myself a "classic" conservative (as opposed to the Pavlovian fools who consider themselves conservatives today, as they salivate after the nonsense and venom spewed by Mr. Trump). I have always supported free market economics, free trade, lower tariffs, the NATO defense alliance, and the whole international architecture largely built by the United States and Britain after World War II. I would note that the term "conservative" has its root in the verb "to conserve," i.e. to conserve the best of what we have produced, politically, economically, and culturally, while changing those aspects that would be better for the change. That goes for language (the subject of this thread) and music, including flamenco.

Stephen, it is very good to hear from you. It has been a long time, and I have often thought I would send you an E-mail message but just haven't gotten around to it. Your observations and insights have been missed on the Foro. When do you plan to next visit the States, or have you already visited this summer? Marta and I plan to be in San Francisco October 31 to November 4, attending a reunion of Project HOPE. You may recall that Project HOPE had the hospital ship SS HOPE that put into port for a year of medical training and working with patients in various countries. Marta was on the ship for a year in 1972 when it was in Natal, in Northeaster Brazil, as an educator/interpreter. (She is Brazilian.) I visited her that summer, and the President of Project HOPE put me up on the ship, bunking with the medical students and getting three squares a day of shipboard meals for working as a deck hand. Great experience. We are both looking forward to the reunion and being in San Francisco again. And we will most certainly have dinner one evening at Scoma's.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2019 15:57:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Further Evidence of Decline in E... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Bill,

I’m not going to California probably until late winter. I’m going to go for lunch, I’ll try to fill you in a bit before I fall asleep after a large teishoku lunch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2019 4:57:00