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"Moon Hoax" Conspiracy Theorists Rev up for 50th Anniversary
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy The...
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Today, July 16, marks the 50th anniversary of the blast-off of Apollo 11, and Saturday, July 20th marks the moon landing. Never fear, the "Moon Hoax" conspiracy theorists are starting to come out of the woodwork. They have always been there, but this presents them with the opportunity to rave on. About six percent of the population believes the moon-landing was a hoax, and, according to people who study conspiracy theorists, they are closely aligned with "flat earth" theorists. No matter how persuasively NASA has demonstrated the reality of the moon-landing, it just feeds into the conspiracy theorists belief that, of course NASA would say that, it just proves how they are part of the grand conspiracy.
According to today's Washington Post article on the subject, A more direct response came from Apollo 11 astronaut Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin when he was hectored by conspiracy theorist Bart Sibrel outside a Beverly Hills hotel in 2002. Sibrel, brandishing a Bible and asking Aldrin to swear on it, said, “You’re the one who said you walked on the moon when you didn’t. . . . You’re a coward and a liar and a thief.” Aldrin decked him with a right cross.
On a related matter, there is a "movement" of conspiracy theorists and activists to force their way into Area 51. Rather than a test area for aircraft, these idiots believe the Air Force is keeping "aliens" in vats of formaldehyde. To attempt to force your way in seems like a good way to get shot. To give you an idea of the level of intelligence of these people, one was quoted as saying, "We wanna see them aliens." Probably voted for Trump.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 16 2019 15:56:03
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
On a related matter, there is a "movement" of conspiracy theorists and activists to force their way into Area 51.
Bill, I think it might help if you regarded the Storming of Area 51, 2019 as the massive cultural event that it promises to be rather than seeing it as simply the assemblage of a rag-tag bunch of conspiracy kooks. The event is over a month away and already 1.1 million people on Facebook have committed to go, with an additional million saying they’re interested. Numerous game plans have been drawn up, none of which make a lick of sense, which only adds to the sense of adventure.
Now, we all realize that focusing on finding the hidden aliens is an exercise in futility. Even a schoolboy would know that they’ll have moved the formaldehyde vats and bodies at least weeks before September 20. Probably to Area 52, which is where they should really be storming, IMO.
But, think of the fun, Bill. There’ll be tailgate parties, Moon Dancing for the hippies, Line Dancing for the cowfolk, and Flossing for the younger set. Children will be conceived, strange children, and fond memories will be created to be passed down through the generations. Celebrities are bound to show up, they always do. Imagine, for a moment, the envious glances you will be receiving from members of this very Foro when you trot out the selfies you took with Keanu and Kanye. Priceless.
Fortunes can be made, too. Can you just imagine how many T-shirts you could sell simply by printing “My parents stormed Area 51 and all I got was this stupid shirt” on them? Opportunity abounds.
Plus, the military seems to be taking the event seriously. Nobody else is. Just today they issued a stern warning for people not to be messing about in government business - Or Else! What grander or more compelling invitation could be extended if not that very caution!
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Date Jul. 16 2019 21:00:38
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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As I have said before, my brother was a Flight Surgeon on the the Gemini program, and Head of the Flight Medicine Branch of NASA throughout the Apollo moon landing program. He knew all the astronauts well, being responsible for their health, that of their families, evaluation of their fitness to fly, and he was a member of the crew selection and assignment committee. He was responsible for the Lunar Receiving Laboratory where the astronauts were quarantined upon their return from the moon. Following the catastrophic fire of Apollo 1 he was made responsible for developing and specifying the life support systems on the spacecraft. He pioneered the telemetry of the the astronauts' medical data from space, plus a variety of other responsibilities.
One of those responsibilities was to be part of the leadership of the recovery team which picked up the astronauts from the ocean, brought them aboard the aircraft carrier, and supervised their quarantine in the small Airstream trailer on the flight deck. In videos of the Apollo 11 recovery he is the man holding the door to the trailer open for the astronauts.
My mother had a friend who was immovably convinced that the moon landing was a hoax, despite my mother trying to fill her in on a few facts. When my mother's friend was introduced to my brother, she informed him that he had been duped as part of the conspiracy.
Apollo 11 splashed down at least 12 miles from the aircraft carrier Hornet. During reentry Hornet reported a brief visual contact with Apollo 11, but I don't know whether it was visible to the naked eye. But my brother participated in the recovery for most of the other moon landings, and saw some of the reentries.
When he told my mother's friend he had seen the astronauts descending from the sky, my mother's friend changed her tune somewhat. She concluded my brother was part of the conspiracy.
From personal knowledge I can say that Area 51 has been used for more than aircraft testing, but I assume I don't I know all the uses it may have been put to. Still, I don't think any aliens have ever been stored there.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 17 2019 5:37:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Area 51 (aka "Groom Lake") was originally obtained for testing the U-2. Beginning in 1954, Allen Dulles, Director of the CIA, put Richard Bissell in charge of spearheading the development the U-2 (Kelly Johnson's Lockheed "skunkworks," Edwin Land, and others were intrumental in its development, but Bissell oversaw the overall effort.) Bissell managed to wrest the U-2 program from the Air Force, no easy task going up against General Curtis LeMay. In order to test the U-2 in complete secrecy, Bissell convinced the Atomic Energy Commission to annex a dry lakebed in Nevada as an "atomic testing ground." That was the genesis of Area 51.
Numerous other highly secret reconnaissance aircraft have been tested at Area 51, including the A-12 ("Operation Oxcart"), the forerunner of the SR-71. There have been weapons systems tested at Area 51 as well, and perhaps other "black" projects, but, historically, it's primary use has been for testing secret reconnaissance aircraft. Since most overhead imagery is now obtained via satellite, I wouldn't be surprised if various "exotic" projects continue to be developed there: Drone technology, swarms of micro-drones, etc.
Richard Bissell had a very interesting career in Washington and with the CIA. He was once called the "smartest man in Washington." His career ended under President Kennedy, however, with the failure of the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, which he spearheaded.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 17 2019 13:45:53
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to mrstwinkle)
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There was no motivation to cheat on the moon shot during the height of the US-USSR rivalry. First of all, we were serious about wanting to land a man on the moon and put the money and brainpower into the project to accomplish it. Second, had we cheated, the Soviet Union would have known about it and revealed it to the world in less than a nanosecond. Finally, NASA has proven without a doubt that the moon landing was real with moon rocks and other incontrovertible evidence.
There have always been conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe the truth of something when it is before them. In fact, to a conspiracy theorist, the very evidence you present on behalf of something is proof in his mind that you are part of the conspiracy. Moon hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, aliens in vats of formaldehyde at Area 51, Nazca Lines in Peru, US government-planned 9/11 terrorist attacks, you name it, and the conspiracy theorist, in his ignorance, has the answer.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 17 2019 14:20:43
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
Yes, but can you then say that there are no conspiracies, that it’s all fiction? Clearly there are, and governments are always up to all sorts of things that (to use George Orwell’s phrase) it “wouldn’t do” to mention.
So the phenomenon you complain of isn’t just a function of the gullibility of the people concerned, but also of the lack of trust in the Government, and the perceived dishonesty of its representatives.
Clearly there have been conspiracies. But conspiracy theorists automatically assume a conspiracy without the slightest evidence. To many conspiracy theorists the moon landing, for example, was a fraud perpetrated to get more funding for NASA and was actually filmed here on earth at Meteor Crater, near Flagstaff, Arizona. Another example is the assassination of John F. Kennedy, which many conspiracy theorists claim was a US government plot involving the military, the CIA and assorted other organizations. No evidence whatsoever, and overwhelming evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did it. Having spent a career in the US State Department working with interagency players, including the military and intelligence communities, I am confident that such a conspiracy would have been exposed long ago. Such a plot could not be kept secret for long.
Conspiracy theorists have a particular mindset that, in my opinion, defies rational explanation.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 17 2019 19:53:59
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to henrym3483)
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quote:
re the moon landing, while i dont doubt that man did land on the moon, ive no doubt there are all type of weird and strange black budget military aircraft out there.
look at all 100's of millions of $$$ pumped into the black budget stuff, lockheed martin skunk works, RAND corp etc.
The US Defense Department has an organization called the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) charged with developing next-generation weapons systems. You can (as you have noted above) disagree with the money spent and the weapons developed, and our own Congress debates the Defense budget, including DARPA, all the time. But DARPA's projects do not represent a US government "conspiracy." So-called "black" projects are black for a reason, because we don't want to give our adversaries and potential enemies advance notice of weapons systems being developed.
The forerunner of DARPA, by the way, developed the earliest version of the internet, and there are many other commercial applications that have been spinoffs of military research. So it has benefits other than just military applications.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 17 2019 20:07:12
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to henrym3483)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henrym3483
if they spent that dosh on making the world a better place than thinking up even more ingenious, devilish and horrid ways of destroying each other what a world it would be
As I have said, I was not part of the inner circle of the Cold War in the USA, but you might say part of the next circle. Many of the people I dealt with in the latter half of my Cold War career had the word "Secretary" in their job title, e.g. "Assistant Secretary," "Undersecretary," and so forth.
One of my younger relatives, born a decade after the fall of the Soviet Union, asked me what the Cold War was like. "Forty years of absolute insanity," I replied.
"How did you manage to resist?" he asked.
"I didn't," I replied, "I participated."
I was not as far gone in paranoia as, for example Richard Perle, whom I dealt with. He mistrusted our allies as much as he did our avowed enemies. But I regarded the existence of the Soviet Union as a mortal danger, to be dealt with seriously and with great care.
Given the posture and policies of the Soviet Union, we had no choice but to respond in some fashion. Given our policies and posture, neither did the Soviets have any alternative. Jointly we developed the capability to destroy civilization many times over, in "self defense."
Viewed from a slight distance this outcome seems just a little paradoxical.
Our superior economic, industrial and scientific capabilities, plus our successful strategy of converting Germany and Japan from mortal enemies to allies, one of the few times this was achieved since the Roman Empire, fueled our tendency to think of "winning" the confrontation of ideologies.
I'm not qualified to comment in any detail on the Soviets' motivation, but it was as determined as our own.
Reagan and Schulz recognized the opportunity afforded by the fatal weakness of the Soviet economy, and found willing negotiating partners in Gorbachev and Shevardnadze. Unfortunately there was no leader like George Marshall (and others) to take advantage of the unexpected sudden collapse of the Soviet Union, in order to convert an erstwhile foe into an ally.
We propped up the incapable and drunken Yeltsin, while today's oligarchs looted Russia. Putin still has a chip on his shoulder over that, despite his success in harnessing the oligarchs to his imperial chariot.
Another reason why we tend to spend money on weapons and stunts like the moon landing is that they are much easier problems to solve than "making the world a better place."
The Apollo program, and its predecessors Mercury and Gemini had simple, explicit goals, with engineering solutions. So does weapon development. People seldom predict accurately the cost or schedule of large technical projects, but they get close enough to the right answers to get the money to begin, to produce some positive results, and to generate the momentum to keep the money flowing until the objective is achieved, at least to general satisfaction.
In the first place, people seriously disagree on what objectives to pursue to "make the world a better place." When they do agree, the law of unintended consequences frequently produces a world that is no better, or often enough, one that is worse.
I'm not counseling inertia in the face of the world's problems. For an 81-year old American I'm left of center politically, which would put me near the middle of the road in Europe.
I'm just trying to explain my take on why we spend our money the way we do. We spend it on objectives we can agree upon, with reasonably predictable outcomes, despite whatever moral imperative there may be to go in a different direction.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 17 2019 22:47:50
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
quote:
[…] you name it, and the conspiracy theorist, in his ignorance, has the answer.
Yes, but can you then say that there are no conspiracies, that it’s all fiction? Clearly there are, and governments are always up to all sorts of things that (to use George Orwell’s phrase) it “wouldn’t do” to mention.
Sure, there have been conspiracies (not sure why you single out governments when there also many, perhaps more, involving large private companies; any large and powerful entity can cook up a conspiracy if it served its interests; even more so if there is less transparency about its actions). However, 'conspiracy theory' has always been used in a derogatory sense, to mean the deranged, evidence-free, reinforced by circular reasoning claims about some supposed conspiracy, repeated despite any logic or evidence to the contrary.
_____________________________
Konstantin
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Date Jul. 17 2019 23:56:54
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
This seems to be the full movie of the retrieval. Richard, perhaps we see your brother at about 28:14 in the video - the man with white shirt and dark pants.
For a few brief moments it seemed that the whole world was united and inspired.
That looks like him. I have a much clearer photo from a few minutes later, and a little known story to go with it, but when I try to upload the 486 KB photo I get an error message:
error '80070070'
/js/PGDUpload.asp, line 328
RNJ
I just scrolled further into the film - take a look at 1:00:35 - 1:00:48, which is an extended sequence of the same moment, but from a better angle.
Also, 1:02:04 -1:02:48. Ah, also 33:27 - 34:20.
BTW, were the astronauts supposed to go through that white plastic sheet tunnel and enter from that end? Based on its position and size it seems that was intended to be put directly against the helicopter. It would also make more sense to do it that way out of concerns for contamination. I guess it was decided in the last minute to do it via the little movable staircase and cross out in the open air and enter from the door with the large window; for the cameras? Hmm, or maybe that entrance was for the landing module.
_____________________________
Konstantin
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Date Jul. 18 2019 0:15:07
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spain
Posts: 49
Joined: Aug. 9 2017
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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i just found out the moon landing was on day of my birthday. that fits to my theory, that im kind of chosen one in philozophical sphere. i always knew something is wrong with this life on earth and i found the truth. dont know how other ppl, but i always knew what einstein, tesla are saying in their philosophical thoughts. and also realized it. even before i read it. i say everything is pre destinated, nothing is actualy a free will, since even free will is hardly defined in comparsion with destiny. we are all made of stars. im a cancer, so was tesla. einstein was pisces. tesla never had a woman in his life, end up on raw plant food, so have i. tesla turned up to pigeons, instead of people, so have i. coincidence? i dont think so. those things are more.
i think moon landing wasnt an hoax. also think we will never visit another star system.
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Date Jul. 18 2019 1:01:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
I just scrolled further into the film - take a look at 1:00:35 - 1:00:48, which is an extended sequence of the same moment, but from a better angle.
Also, 1:02:04 -1:02:48.
BTW, were the astronauts supposed to go through that white plastic sheet tunnel and enter from that end? Based on its position and size it seems that was intended to be put directly against the helicopter. It would also make more sense to do it that way out of concerns for contamination. I guess it was decided in the last minute to do it via the little movable staircase and cross out in the open air and enter from the door with the large window; for the cameras? Hmm, or maybe that entrance was for the landing module.
Yes, that's him. I don't know the answer to the question about the plastic tunnel, but the whole subject of contamination from the moon was a vexed question.
Though we now know more about the viability of life forms in space, it was generally believed at the time of the Apollo program that there was nearly no chance of life on the moon. However the potential consequences of a virulent lunar contamination were so severe that considerable money was spent on the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, and other countermeasures. How much money to spend was controversial at the highest levels.
One Friday I received a call from my brother, asking whether he could visit us in Austin over the weekend. Though he didn't mention any motivation, I said, "Of course."
On the hot Saturday afternoon we were lying on the grass at Deep Eddy, a spring fed swimming pool near our house. My brother said he had been forced to fire his subordinate in charge of the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. His subordinate had clamored for more funding and stronger measures. Though turned down by the head of NASA he persisted, and complained to the news media. He was told by my brother's boss not to deal with the news people other than through official NASA public relations channels. He was welcome to express his opinions, but only in the context of NASA's official position.
The subordinate had conducted a single handed interview with Time Magazine on Thursday, my brother fired him on Friday. To avoid the possibility of a weekend TV stakeout at his house in Houston, harassing his wife and children, my brother had come to Austin. The news people hadn't figured out where he was yet.
The concern for contamination was a part of the earlier story i mentioned.
Just after the last video clip kitarist mentions, President Nixon approached the Airstream trailer. The curtain was drawn on the large window, Nixon congratulated the astronauts and basked in their reflected glory.
In the photo i tried to post my brother is in the background, listening intently over headphones, as Nixon jokes with the astronauts.
A few years ago I visited my brother and his wife at their place in the Texas Hill Country northwest of San Antonio. As I walked into the house my brother was on the telephone. The conversation went on for a few more minutes, then he hung up and apologized.
"They're talking about going back to the moon, and they have asked some of us old timers to come to a conference so they can pick our brains. I was talking to one of my guys to make sure I had the story straight."
The Airstream trailer was maintained at slightly less than the ambient atmospheric pressure by pumps whose output was powerfully filtered. The idea was to be sure that if the trailer should leak, air would go in, not leak out carrying potenetial moon bugs. While Nixon was talking to the astronauts the pressure in the trailer began to rise. Part of my brother's job was to assure that the astronauts were properly quarantined and that decontamination procedures were adhered to.
If the pressure inside the trailer had risen by a fraction more of a pound per square inch, my brother would have been required to quarantine the entire flight deck of Hornet, including the President of the United States. An engineer found the leak and put a piece of duct tape over it just in time.
My brother left NASA after Apollo 17. His last job before retirement was on the faculty of the Texas Medical School at Galveston, supervising Space Medicine grad students, supervising the health of the 3,000 employees of the associated hospital complex, and being responsible for the Category 4 biological confinement facility where highly infectious diseases like Ebola are studied.
I once asked him how the Galveston facility compared to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. He just smiled.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 18 2019 1:14:02
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Hi Richard.
If possible, in light of the anniversary, could you convey the admiration and respect of the Foro to your brother? I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this is due. Hopefully you realize the same appreciation has also been extended to you by the Foro for some time now.
I truly enjoy reading your anecdotes. And yours too, Bill!
Thank you Rob.
A few years ago my brother and i were sitting on the screened porch at his house in the country, looking over about twenty miles of Texas Hill Country toward the glowing sunset. He had recently received the highest award of the Space Medicine Society.
I said, "When we were in high school, did you ever think our lives would turn out the way they have?"
He thought for a while, and said, "No, I didn't. How about you?"
"Me either."
Larisa tells me I worked hard for what I got.
I tell her, "Yes, but I know a lot of people who worked just as hard or even harder. I was really lucky."
"But you worked hard."
"Partly because I loved my job. Partly because I wanted people to think well of me. Partly because I wanted my team to do well, whoever they were at the time. Just like a lot of other people. But I happened to be in the right place at the right time."
It took me a while to figure out that last part.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 18 2019 1:42:08
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Paul Magnussen
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
Sure, there have been conspiracies (not sure why you single out governments when there also many, perhaps more, involving large private companies; any large and powerful entity can cook up a conspiracy if it served its interests; even more so if there is less transparency about its actions). However, 'conspiracy theory' has always been used in a derogatory sense, to mean the deranged, evidence-free, reinforced by circular reasoning claims about some supposed conspiracy, repeated despite any logic or evidence to the contrary.
Of course; but the problem then becomes distinguishing between ‘conspiracy theory’, (i.e. the phenomenon with the attributes you mention) and an actual conspiracy theory, i.e. a hypothesis with a substantial body of supporting evidence.
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Date Jul. 18 2019 5:10:22
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: "Moon Hoax" Conspiracy... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
quote:
Sure, there have been conspiracies (not sure why you single out governments when there also many, perhaps more, involving large private companies; any large and powerful entity can cook up a conspiracy if it served its interests; even more so if there is less transparency about its actions). However, 'conspiracy theory' has always been used in a derogatory sense, to mean the deranged, evidence-free, reinforced by circular reasoning claims about some supposed conspiracy, repeated despite any logic or evidence to the contrary.
Of course; but the problem then becomes distinguishing between ‘conspiracy theory’, (i.e. the phenomenon with the attributes you mention) and an actual conspiracy theory, i.e. a hypothesis with a substantial body of supporting evidence.
I understand the distinction you are making, but it is precisely that "substantial body of supporting evidence" that is missing in the conspiracy theories we have been discussing: Moon hoax, chemtrails, US government-planned 9/11 attacks, Peruvian Nazca lines designed by space aliens, Area 51 aliens in vats of formaldehyde, US government agencies conspired to assassinate JFK, and on and on.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 18 2019 11:39:33
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