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Guitarra de tablao?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
Well, best source would be to ask Richard Brune’ or to look for something about it in the old issues of American Lutherie.
I read something about them in a couple of books (I think in a catalog regarding an exhibition held in Madrid and the usual urlich book) and somewhere I saw a plan of one of these guitars but I never had one of these guitars in my hands.
To make it short, it seems like it was Francisco Gonzales (the teacher of the 2 Ramirez brothers) to invent those “egg shaped” guitars and that they were quite requested in Madrid at the beginning of the century.
The guitars of Gonzales, mostly classical guitars; are quite easily identifiable at the first sight by the very large plantilla, small sides, very pronounced doming of both back and top and very big concentrical rosettes.
José Ramirez I (at the beginning together with Manuel) settled a small company making and selling different model of these kind of guitars but without making any specific distinction between flamenco and classical guitars.
The story is that Manuel left his brother José and the Ramirez company (pretending to be going abroad) and instead he settled a new shop in Madrid with few employees (Santos Hernandez, Domingo Esteso and Modesto Borreguero) to compete with him.
Manuel offered basically the Torres model of guitar while José the egg shaped guitars of Gonzales.
To make it short the guitars of Manuel prevailed on those sold by the brother and bye bye to the egg shaped guitars
The first formal distinction between classical and flamenco guitars (guitarra for aires populates and later “de tablao”) appears in a catalog of Manuel of the beginning of the last century but José used to make an analog egg shaped model.
I’m sure that Gal has a plan of a Gonzales.
If you need some measures I can take them from Romanillos catalog or the Urlich book.
Ramirez III describes this guitar in his book, his personal one is maple, and until last year when I got this catalogue I had never seen a pic of one. This is the replica they are selling, it’s not that egg shaped thing you describe:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317197&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#317197
As we can see it’s a sort of evolutionary stepping stone from Torres classical to the modern flamenco. Ramirez III admits his dad stubbornly clung to this design of his grandfather as his great uncle Manuel took over popularity with the Flamencos with his design (the clear model of the modern flamenco). Important to note that cypress was NOT necessarily prefered to rosewood or maple back then, knocking down the old opinion that PDL and Conde introduced the negra in the modern era.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 23 2019 16:46:24
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Echi
Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
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RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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Well, if I am not wrong the first step towards the modern flamenco guitar should be attributed to Manuel and not to Josè.
The book “Thinks about the guitar” is a book written (by a pillar of the modern guitar) to enhance the myth of the Ramirez House, but does’t say the whole truth in many regards: for instance it doesn’t mention that the two old Ramirez brothers were aggressive competitors who couln’t stand each other.
At the beginning, the two Ramirez brothers used to work together under Jose’’s guidance.
The picture of the 1889 guitar is interesting because refers to the time when Manuel was still working in the same shop with Josè, building Gonzalez style guitars and nonetheless that particular model of guitar (probably belonging to Manuel) looks like a prototipe of a Guitarra de tablao, due to the small cypress ribs..
At a certain stage Manuel decided to cut and wanted some money to cover his share of the company, pretending to plan to go abroad. He instead opened a shop in Madrid and used his contacts to become the main shop of the conservatorio de Madrid. Easy to imagine how tense were the feelings between the 2..
Manuel is the guy who listed the first guitarra de tablao in a catalog some years before his brother.
The guitarra, described as guitarra “per aires populares” was nothing else but a light Torres style guitar made of Cypress: the actual maker was one among Domingo Esteso, Santos Hernandez or Modesto Borreguero.
The reason Manuel prevailed over the brother and we hardly know today about Jose’s guitars de tablao is the high standard of the journeyman employed by Manuel, the quality of his guitars and the endorsement of Segovia.
Ramirez II also left to Argentina during the civil war, while Santos kept being in Madrid
Ramirez III deserves great consideration imho but the inheritance of Manuel (who didn’t have sons) passed through his journeymen: Santos, Barbero and Arcangel (or through Esteso and the Condes if you want to follow the other line) without contacts with the casa José Ramirez.
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Date Feb. 24 2019 23:09:57
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
quote:
Ramírez III admits openly in his book to the problems between José and Manuel, puts his dad down for missing the flamenco boat
Btw is it not the same that happened with him?
I mean, the first flamenco blancas designed by Ramirez III were quite successful ( Sabicas, the young Paco...) but then in the seventhies Ramirez III Just gave up developing the flamenco model and lendorsing flamenco players.
It’s true that he hardly could fill the demands of his classical but it’s also true that Ramirez IV admittedly repented and tried to correct the route.
For me as well it's been a while since I read Jose III's book, but I recollect him complaining in it that the flamencos insisted upon guitars of traditional design, and resisted any innovation.
In person, Jose III didn't show much interest in flamenco. Sabicas, however, was reputed in later years to usually have a Ramirez flamenca available for sale. The last time I saw Sabicas live, in 1965, he was playing an Arcangel Fernandez.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 7 2019 1:08:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
This attitude was somehow quite common for the time: I remember even Arcangel Fernandez (a flamenco player himself) refusing to make flamenco guitars for some years and devoting himself to classical guitar building only.
IMHO the things started changing in the eighties after Paco’s success. When this happened, Ramirez was probably not ready as the main players were all following Paco and faithful to Conde.
Fashion now calls for other makers but Ramirez is still a guitar plenty of qualities and perfectly in line with more expensive guitars.
For many years I preferred my ‘67 Ramirez blanca to any other flamenca I played, with the exception of a ‘73 Conde that belonged to a friend. I now prefer my ‘82 Arcangel, but this is certainly a matter of taste. Ramzi played both, and preferred the Ramirez.
Ricardo played the Arcangel, but I’m pretty sure he preferred his Conde. He did say the Arcangel was better than an (2?) Arcangel negra(s) he had played ar Brune’s shop. Later Ricardo told me his mother heard his recording with the Arcangel, said it was the best guitar she had heard him play, and that I ought to give it to him. I appreciated the compliment to the guitar, especially from a professionally capable guitarist like Ricardo’s mother, but I plan to leave it to my heirs to dispose of.
Brune complimented the Arcangel warmly, but I’m sure he prefers an Esteso and a Barbero he owns, maybe others as well. I might prefer the Barbero myself, but it wasn’t for sale, and I probably couldn’t afford it if it were.
I browse the internet listings regularly, and in the last 20 years have seen many more Arcangel blancas for sale than classicals, mostly from the ‘60s and ‘70s. I don’t recall when Arcangel contracted his entire output to a Japanese dealer, but it was before he made my ‘82, which bears no serial number, as a few others do not.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 7 2019 17:42:19
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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Hello All,
Player's response to instruments is about as subjective as any experience we have. Gene Clark used to say that he tried to make his guitars look beautiful because the first thing the player did was to take the guitar out of the case. He wanted the look of the instrument to be inspiring so that the playing of the music was inspiring to the audience. Now that is a pretty sophisticated approach to making guitars.
I think that even the stories that are associated with a guitar are part of the experience of playing it. Who made it who has owned it, who has played it, is it one made from that famous rosewood church door? All of these things influence our experience.
One of my owners has a De La Chica that belonged to a mutual friend that we were both close to, who passed away. Frankly the guitar is nothing to write home about, but because it belonged to, and was loved by, Craig, we both find it an inspiring guitar to play.
I have found that the reality is that I'm a classical guitar maker. Fortunately I love classical guitar music, and play a couple of Stefano Grondona's CD's as background music in the shop all the time. I would love to make some flamenco's---and I do make really good ones, if I do say so myself. But the market is just not there.
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jul. 8 2019 0:03:45
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NorCalluthier
Hello All,
Player's response to instruments is about as subjective as any experience we have.
This prompts me to repeat my experience with the well known Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel Ramirez (now deceased). I bought a number of instruments from him for people here in Texas, mostly less expensive than the best, but very good value for the money.
Pimentel's main clientele were the hard working professionals of Mexico City, including many of the most famous, for example the trio romantico Los Tres Reyes, which included Gilberto Puente, in my opinion by far the world's greatest requinto player.
Pimentel and maybe a half dozen assistants stayed busy. During the late 1960s through the early 1980s when I dealt with Pimentel the wait for a guitar was up to a year.
Pimentel's workbench was at a large window which opened onto the sidewalk. Most of his daily interaction with customers was through this window, while he continued working. If you were a regular, or a new customer who showed genuine interest in placing an order, you were invited into the somewhat cluttered shop, and seated upon a chair or an upturned wooden box. If you were a new potential customer you were handed a guitar by an assistant.
Pimentel continued working while listening carefully to the player, only occasionally turning to glance at the player's hands.
After observing this process for a few years, I asked, "Maestro, do you make the instrument to suit the customer's way of playing?"
Pimentel raised his eyebrows in surprise that I should even have asked, nodded curtly in affirmation, and went back to work.
RNJ
As a regular I was sometimes handed an instrument as well. Once it was a 1930s Santos Hernandez blanca, brought to the shop to be refinished. I was bowled over. Pimentel smiled, said he thought I would like to play it, and went back to work.
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Date Jul. 8 2019 21:58:33
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