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RE: Faster traditional rosette
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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 RE: Faster traditional rosette (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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Hello Guys,
Lets calm down and not let this thread devolve into a pissing contest. I had that happen on the DelCamp forum, and it was so depressing that I quit the place altogether. That other builders choose a path that is different from mine, is just fine by me.
I love doing everything myself. I even make my own purfling, as I like holly veneer for the white lines. I certainly gave up on French polishing reluctantly, as I enjoyed gradually developing my skill at it. But, having passed that on, I'm freed up to do the woodworking which is my "do best". I read somewhere that you can never do anything great until you recognize your limitations.
I'll always make my own rosettes, as I really enjoy that. In looking for ways to get more guitars made, speeding up the rosette making just seems like a likely place to save some time. I've got a bunch of things I want to try out, and they all take making an instrument---or several---to try them.
As for still building at age 77, you have brought up my favorite topic---personal health! I'm in excellent health thanks to the low-carb (high fat) diet. It cured my Type II diabetes, and protects me against all of the usual modern diseases that kill us.
The word "diet" means "hunger" to most everybody. On this diet I never get hungry! I have a collection of links to information on the subject that I'm happy to forward. Email me at:
brian@lessonsinlutherie.com
If you send me a private message through the forum, it doesn't show your email address, and I can't send you anything.
Cheers,
Brian
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 28 2017 14:26:32
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Faster traditional rosette---aft... (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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Hello All,
Gene Clark used to say that the reason that he fussed so much over the appearance of his instruments was that part of a player's performance was taking the guitar out of its case. If it was inspiring to look at, it helped the player to perform his best.
Frank Ford, the co-owner of Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto for some 40 years says:
"The builder builds first of all for tone, second for playability, and third for appearance. The buyer buys first of all for appearance, second for playability, and third for tone. Nobody ever brings a guitar back because it doesn't sound good. They want the action "as low as possible, without buzzing", or there is some cosmetic damage that needs fixing".
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jun. 28 2017 15:49:04
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Faster traditional rosette (in reply to johnguitar)
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quote:
This video has been on my blog for some time so some of you may have seen it already, sorry. I think it adds something to this conversation. I too will always make my own rosettes. It is very satisfying although time-consuming and finicky. http://www.granadaexpert.com/johnray/about-rosettes/
This is a good video and thanks for sharing Rolf's work, he seems like a genius. I understand Anders also had a connection to him. I think he and Gene Clark, my teacher have a lot in common in that they utilized skillful means and great integrity to accomplish faster tighter work. It's very inspiring to see.
When I made the three part rosette video in 2012 I was working out how to go faster by attaining more skill and using very basic tile and line elements. I wanted to have a guitar that had a handmade rosette, but I wanted it to be minimal enough that I could turn out the guitar top with a rosette implanted in it fairly fast. I think previous to that I spent many years wringing my hands and worrying for half the time it took to make a rosette. Then by using the most pared down line and tile elements I had confidence to push the process faster, I pushed too fast and the process got out of control I would just do what Gene had said many years ago: Pull the lines out, wipe the glue off of them, clean the channel in the top, take a few breaths, compose yourself and begin over again. - Gene said the difference between good work and great work, is rework.
He like Rolf was probably a significant behind the scene teacher for many makers. The great steel string maker Linda Manzer was has said in interviews that Gene's work she saw early on was a big influence and inspiration for her.
I think one of the problems is fear. Too many makers operate from a basis of fear in that they create a working process that addresses their fears of failure instead of practicing skills with basic hand tools or making small specialty tools and fixtures to move things faster. In the late 1990's when I was learning from Gene the trust of the small luthiers movement and garage hobby guitar making was to figure out how to make a shop full of power tools to do all the operations in such a way that it removed fear from the process. That was the opposite of what I set out to do under Gene's umbrella. He was highly critical of that idea of replacing skill with the craftsmanship of certainty because it diluted the Spanish traditional art of guitar making. He did have a fear, and that was that people who lacked skill would in the future teach the Spanish art without going through the process of attainment of skill in workmanship of risk. He saw failure and dealing with fear as an intrinsic part of the teaching and leaning process. He knew that skill would be more important and could be used by the maker to overcome fear. His teaching, and the subsequent work I did in Stewart Port's shop, who is a Matt Umanov alum, was much the same philosophy.
In a greater sense guitar making for some of us is not a transactional process first, it's a wholistic process where the way a guitar looks, sounds and feels is not rated one, two, three in importance, but all aspects come together through skill and process to create a cohesive whole. The challenge Gene set up is, can you build them fast enough and keep eye-hand skill and cleverness as your confidants in the process? This imprinted deeply on me and I turned away from the very American attitude of gadget making and making a factory in my garage. I sat down with hand tools and figured it all out that way, and then asked Gene and Stewart for criticism of the work. And that was successful, because operating from a place of fear is not where I work.
I just took a job teaching Jr. High English to Japanese kids in the Akune school system- the lessons I learned about process, skill and fear in guitar making have a place in teaching English. Japanese kids are usually not confident about speaking aloud. They come from a long learning process that is based on written test taking. What they need, the teachers and school districts recognize, is skill and confidence imprinted by a native speaker. Having gone through a process of dealing with fear of failure in rosette making by pushing hard, failing and then gaining raw skill to succeed, I've got something to latch onto to draw from to help the kids gain confidence. I see over the top of their fears to the other side, and knowing that I can identify the fearful looks and scoop up a kid and move them forward.
Teaching part time also ensures we have money coming in when guitar sales are slow. This means I can continue to honor the teaching I received and continue to develop myself in the Spanish tradition of skillful means. I don't have to cut corners or make compromises to the work - the work and my understanding of this tradition remains intact and that is more important to me than overstepping skill to create a faster made guitar to sell cheaper.
My first teacher Mr. Tenney, the violin bow maker and architect I worked for in high school said: You make something, it's going to last four or five hundred years if someone takes care of it; so think about making an object that will be fascinating to look at for 400 years.
I was doomed from the beginning, I was told at age 17 to train myself to make masterpieces in what ever art I finally do. And now I can, so should I throw 40 years of work away and cut corners? If Mr. Tenney were still around he would be pleased. So would Gene.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 28 2017 23:33:16
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Faster traditional rosette (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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Hello All,
Frank Ford's "Gryphon Stringed Instruments" is primarily a steel string shop. His partner Richard Johnston wrote that lovely big book on the history of Martin Guitars. I only quoted his observation as a note about one person's experience in selling to the public.
My French polishing is done by Eric Reid's partner Haiying. They do mostly high end work---Ervin Somogyi's for example. Eric says that players say that they don't care about how a guitar looks, but in the end they do.
It's not well known that Ervin is a really good flamenco guitarist, though he builds primarily steel string acoustics.
I went to a lot of trouble to get my first good guitar---an Arcangel---and did it entirely because of the sound. It would have been a nice added attraction if it had looked better.
My dad ran an auto paint and body shop. He used to tell me that I was going to have to make a living with my brains, as "you sure as hell won't do it with your hands"!
Though I'm not talented at acquiring hand skills, I have learned some, and certainly do use hand tools a lot, particularly the hand plane. But, I use power tools, and jigs and fixtures, a lot also. I think that we all have to find a balance that fits us, and the quality of the resulting work is what's important.
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jun. 29 2017 15:00:26
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Appearance really isn't a factor for me. Short from a rosette with a motif of tiny swastikas, there's no much I'd object to.
Looks great as usual btw
