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RE: What makes a music "good"?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
When I read about Nino Miguel years ago it seemed that his importance was as a composer whose musical ideas influenced other musicians at the time - including PDL. He was also widely considered a virtuoso at a young age. The aspect of lost potential due to mental illness was yet another factor in the story. What a person of Nino Miguel’s caliber – and others like him - would have accomplished had he been unencumbered by illness is a timeless question which comes up often in various fields.
Ok, lots to unpack here off the topic, so forgive the following rant...or just skip this if you are a die hard Niño Miguel fan. We all know by now what “going viral” means. Back in early days of foro and youtube (2003-4 or so), it was not so well understood how a couple matches of verbal nonsense could spark up and catch on and spread like Wildfire and take over a gazillion people’s opinions. Well, I went back and found some postings of maybe 3 guys (including my friend flamencoguru) on foro, huge fans of Nino Miguel, based on these youtube comments on the bootleg videos and such that kept that ball going, and it was a frustrating review to read my comments and theirs. Even back then I was surprised because I had never read any such thing about the guy in the literature I had read about him, nor Faucher’s book of transcriptions. My own opinion was and still is, the guy was a PDL wannabe from the beginning. He was lucky to hangout with Paco and Camaron, and got to accompany camaron on occasion thanks to some gitano bootlegs I have seen, but honestly he doesn’t standout as an important figura due to a lack of work with important cantaores (baring a few fandangueros de huelva), unlike some other peers such as Enrique del Melchor. Enrique in particular I view as a very similar “PDL wannabe” who actually has a more refined technique. Both of these guys drew heavily on the innovations of PDL’s recordings El Duende flamenco, and Fuente y Caudal. Both are Gitano and have their family history etc, but musically speaking that’s all there really is to say about it. Neither of them evolved much further than that solo guitarwise. It doesn’t mean I don’t LOVE their playing and compositions, and even consider them UNDERRATED artists (until this recent Nino Miguel hype I referred too earlier). But this nonsense of Paco being scared of him or stealing his music has to just get squelched. To go further, I don’t feel his sad story of psychotic downfall at the height of his career a unique story either....it’s quite clear how substance abuse has been so pervasive and efficient at taking down so many great artists in this genre. The list is too big to even talk about, plus the obvious ease at which the evangelical culto had at taking a grip on the vulnerable gitano flamenco culture due to this issue is telling. The whole thing is depressing.
I try to be scientific about it, what is really going on by the music and the timeline. Niño Miguel has his place in history as the first to put together Montoya’s Rondeña with buleria compas, like chocolate and peanut butter, for posterity. Of course the idea has to be PDL’s Canastera, but still I have to give him that. I once thought he innovated the C# and D# flamenco keys as well, but alas those innovations belong to other players before him. (Velez and American David Serva respectively, as my very honest investigations have pointed to).
Regarding the need to include the history of the artist in question to evaluate his final product, I have no dissagreement...but you are totally missing the point I was making regarding the original poster’s frustrations with the ACTUAL topic at hand. He was trying to whittle away at the problem of what makes “us” prefer one artist over another. The problem I was pointing out was how difficult this actually is to do BECAUSE it’s not practical to remove all the history and context and such, hence my use of N. Miguel as an example.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 6 2019 14:10:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to henrym3483)
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quote:
re the drugs, ive seen it destroy a lot of competent singers and artists in jerez and have a severe impact on their health. lots of people to blame, columbian cartels and spanish cartels seen in the series "farina" spring to mind as being the sources of the white poison and other narco nasties.
I respectfully disagree with the above quoted statement. The Colombian and Mexican cartels, for example, would not exist were it not for the huge demand for drugs in the United States. Demand drives supply, not the other way around. I remember many times over the last 30 years when the US made pronouncements condemning Colombia as the primary reason for drug addiction in the US. This was pure twaddle. We in the US, with our insatiable demand, are the primary reason drug addiction exists in the US.
I would not let flamenco artists and others off the hook by blaming Colombian and Spanish cartels either. The minute someone decides to try drugs, he is responsible for both the short-term and long-term effects, including addiction, that follow. That doesn't mean cartels and suppliers bear no responsibility, but those who begin taking drugs bear the primary responsibility for becoming ensnared in addiction.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 7 2019 15:13:51
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I respectfully disagree with the above quoted statement. The Colombian and Mexican cartels, for example, would not exist were it not for the huge demand for drugs in the United States. Demand drives supply, not the other way around. I remember many times over the last 30 years when the US made pronouncements condemning Colombia as the primary reason for drug addiction in the US. This was pure twaddle. We in the US, with our insatiable demand, are the primary reason drug addiction exists in the US.
I would not let flamenco artists and others off the hook by blaming Colombian and Spanish cartels either. The minute someone decides to try drugs, he is responsible for both the short-term and long-term effects, including addiction, that follow. That doesn't mean cartels and suppliers bear no responsibility, but those who begin taking drugs bear the primary responsibility for becoming ensnared in addiction.
Bill
We'll id respectfully disagree, drug dealers are "known" for creating a demand, yes, in some respects everyone is responsible for what they put into their bodies, but those people making 100's of millions of $$$ off the misery and death of others is not a business to be commended or condoned.
lets not forget the IRAN contra-scandal and other scandals which have rocked the political landscape involving drug running links to government agencies and bent officials, and are now more or less, forgotten.
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Date Jun. 7 2019 15:30:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to henrym3483)
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quote:
We'll id respectfully disagree, drug dealers are "known" for creating a demand, yes, in some respects everyone is responsible for what they put into their bodies, but those people making 100's of millions of $$$ off the misery and death of others is not a business to be commended or condoned.
lets not forget the IRAN contra-scandal and other scandals which have rocked the political landscape involving drug running links to government agencies and bent officials, and are now more or less, forgotten.
By placing primary responsibility on drug users and the demand they create, I certainly did not suggest that "those people making 100's of millions of $$$ off the misery and death of others" are to be "commended or condoned." I simply stated that primary responsibility lies with the drug user and the demand he creates, although suppliers also bear part of the responsibility.
Regarding the Iran-Contra scandal, US involvement was an attempt to sell arms to Iran (while Iran was under an arms embargo) and use the proceeds to help finance the Contras in their operations against the Sandanista government in Nicaragua. It was illegal and several US government officials were indicted. The scandal itself had no connection to drugs. What you may be referring to is later evidence that the Contras were involved in drug-running to finance their operations, but that was apart from the Iran-Contra affair itself and had no US involvement.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 7 2019 16:24:35
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szvarga
Posts: 58
Joined: Mar. 11 2019
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
It’s not different sorry.... it’s cheesy is what it is. As far as flamenco guitar innovations, whatever gets introduced that’s “new” has to function in cante accompanying context if it is to have lasting value. From the time montoya used his altered tuning to accompany singer right up to Vicente Amigo doing his modern things for Pele or Diego del Morao out in left field for solea, siguiriyas etc, they all have proven their innovations in context. So they are accepted and are options for successive generations to use or not based on taste. If some cheesy dork came into the fold tapping on the fingerboard and drumming on the body like that, it won’t be taken serious by singers and dismissed as a joke by aficionados.
Mike Dawes doing One for example.... even let’s pretend he could pull that off minus the over dubbed parts, it’s like an anemic vegetarian version of an amazing heavy metal tune.... all the power is gone. I remember hearing that song on radio thinking how the hell did they break through to mainstream with THIS?? Amazing triumph IMO. But here we are left with all the power stripped out.
How about a cantaor learn the letras in spanish and with strong voz afilla accompanied by a real tocaor with proper technique? It would be acoustic but all the darkness of the song and rhythmic power of the original would be restored.
I absolutely can't go along with your points. All of them are too arrogant for me.
Those guys plays a kind of guitar music, which is clear, in time, has control over the technique, in a unique and innovative way. And you call them simply crap, because you can't imagine how it can works with flamenco cante? First, nobody said, it can work. Second, there is always a chance, to appear someone, who CAN imagine, what the crowd can not.
I myself don't like this kind of guitar music. I'm not the one who support them, to pay for a show, or a CD. But I support them wholeheartedly for their brave attitude to break new ground in guitar playing. And anyone else, in any genre of guitar music.
But call it a crap...?
You really miss the energy of one of the greatest power ballad of its time in a solo acoustic arrangement? That is total misunderstanding. If i want to feel again the energy of the original, I take my worn cassette tape of Justice, and I advise You the same. You know what? That was exactly the objection of the critics, when Liszt did his LvB symphony arrangements for solo piano. Where is the energy? Where are the colors? Simply nowhere.
Because those kind of solo arrangements are not for the imitation of the original qualities. Those are to extend the solo instrument boundaries. And as Liszt did his work to extend it on piano, Mr. Dawes did his work on guitar. And that work deserves respect in my view, regardless of the result fits my musical taste or not.
Sz
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Date Jun. 8 2019 17:42:14
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szvarga
Posts: 58
Joined: Mar. 11 2019
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to kitarist)
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Yes, it seems this topic goes off for a while. Drug cartells (which isn't "good" for music, for sure  ), Metallica arrangement, the evolution of tapping in hard rock...
Let me try to clear things a little. Those whole mess starts with this question: quote:
Can you provide links to performances of guitar music you consider innovative?
And I simply showed something innovative.
If we talking about this way, is it innovative or not what I showed, it is criticism of what I said. But simply call it "cheesy" and a "joke" isn't criticism. And in particular not in my original context. It's simply a personal view (and for me, it's too arrogant. sorry...). Of course, we all have our personal different views. Ricardo's, as I understand it, what those guys do, is a crap. My view, that they deserves some respect for they tries. You have yours.
But what on earth has this got to do with the only thing I ever said about this: is it innovative or not?
quote:
not the best way to achieve what's asked for in the posts title.
I feel, maybe this question leads us back to on topic. Can innovation makes music good? I think it cannot, by itself. If innovation is for only to be innovative, it is selfish. As anything, which is there only for itself.
If one plays in a certain way, because one CAN play like that, sooner or later it gets bored. If one plays in a way, because the music needs it, the feeling wants to go there, it can make the music good.
As I see, innovation and experimenting with something new makes sense, when it is to add some new tool, to follow the need of the music.
Peace,
Sz
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Date Jun. 9 2019 8:22:15
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
Ah, yes. It is from Pepe Romero's father's composition. Whenever one of the Romeros plays this on stage, they always first tell the story of how it is not Van Halen who came up with guitar tapping but Celedonio, their father/grandfather.
In 1972, in Phoenix, Arizona, it was my great good fortune to attend a concert by the Romeros: the father Celedonio, and the sons, Angel, Celin, and Pepe. And in 2010, Marta and I, along with a couple of friends, attended the annual New Year's Eve performance by the National Symphony Orchestra at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC, featuring Pepe Romero on the guitar. It was a lovely performance. What a gifted family of musicians!
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 11 2019 21:49:22
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
In 1972, in Phoenix, Arizona, it was my great good fortune to attend a concert by the Romeros: the father Celedonio, and the sons, Angel, Celin, and Pepe. And in 2010, Marta and I, along with a couple of friends, attended the annual New Year's Eve performance by the National Symphony Orchestra at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC, featuring Pepe Romero on the guitar.
Wow, so lucky! You saw the original Romero Quartet! Nowadays two of the sons (Celin and Pepe) and two grandsons (Celino and Lito) are it.
_____________________________
Konstantin
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Date Jun. 12 2019 5:19:33
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to kitarist)
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The last time Pepe played here in Austin I said to him,”The first time I saw you was in San Antonio fifty years ago with your father and brothers. You played a Vivaldi concerto with the Symphony.”
“Yes,” Pepe replied,”with Victor Alessandro, a great friend of my father conducting.”
“As a quartet you played Tarrega’s Gran Jota, but each of you took a solo turn. It was virtuosic. Tonight the Gran Jota was just as virtuosic, but even more poetic.”
“Thank you.”
“You seem to enjoy performing so much.”
Pepe paused for a moment, then replied, “Yes...I do.”
I said what I had set out to say, “You take us along with you. You lift our spirits.”
He touched my shoulder lightly, smiled, and said, “It’s the music that lifts us, isn’t it?”
RNJ
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Date Jun. 12 2019 20:19:54
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to kitarist)
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I ordered the newer edition of Pepe Romero's book "La Guitarra." It came in the mail yesterday. It contains technical and musical instruction, mainly classical, but with some flamenco as well, numerous exercises, many by Giuliani, some pieces to play including an alegrias by Pepe, and advice.
The section on performance begins,
"The principal problem that takes place during a public performance is that the performer finds himself imprisoned by his ego, which locks his thoughts in the difficulty of the work he is to perform and in the impact that the success or failure of his performance will have upon him."
He elaborates a little more on the impact of ego, then writes, "Music has nothing to do with any of these thoughts. Music is abstract, spiritual,and sensual.....In order to be transported by music, we must conquer the ego and stop negative thoughts before they take place."
Later he writes, "The ego will ask us if the piece will serve to demonstrate our technical facility. If we permit ourselves even the most minimal contemplation of this theme, we can be certain that any degree of energy spent in this consideration will be manifested and multiplied in the form of nerves and doubts when the piece is performed in front of an audience.....in the words of the great composer Giuseppe Verdi, 'Music is not to impress others, but to move them.' "
I would say that to think we should perform in public certainly requires a healthy ego, and to achieve the ability to do it requires determination as well. But Pepe's point is that we must be very careful how we employ that ego, and must avoid the ill effects of letting it run unchecked.
As Pepe said to me, "It's the music that lifts us, isn't it?"
RNJ
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Date Jun. 12 2019 21:44:28
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szvarga
Posts: 58
Joined: Mar. 11 2019
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RE: What makes a music "good"? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
Later he writes, "The ego will ask us if the piece will serve to demonstrate our technical facility. If we permit ourselves even the most minimal contemplation of this theme, we can be certain that any degree of energy spent in this consideration will be manifested and multiplied in the form of nerves and doubts when the piece is performed in front of an audience.....in the words of the great composer Giuseppe Verdi, 'Music is not to impress others, but to move them.' "
I've been thinking about that a lot, and some thoughts comes to my mind.
I should say, for me there are things in musicianship, like some kind of levels. Those thoughts You quote are from the highest level musician can achieve (I'm on a pretty lower level, but it ain't no news:)). On that highest level the balance of one's personality, the spiritual health and the well handled ego makes the difference. The handling of the instrument, the playing technique is not the main problem anymore. On that level the instrument becomes one with the player, and all the playing abilities serves the goal to communicate the feelings of the player (or the composer).
That level is the ultimate goal as a musician, I think. To "move" or "lift" the spirit of the audience by the music played. And the thoughts by Pepe Romero (and Verdi) shows a clear way how to achieve this ultimate goal.
But for me, I feel this is only one side. An important and essential side, of course, but what we can do technically, besides this psychological side, to achieve this ultimate goal? There is anything we can do, after all? Or is it in the spiritual attitude only?
For example, I can't build a practicing schedule on "lifting spirits" (Oh, I wish I could...).
I can build up a practicing schedule in a hundred ways, setting hundreds of focus. My focus might be to building repertoire. It might be to perfect my timing, or clearing up one or more technique to perfection. Or even to looking good while playing and get as much female phone numbers as possible:)))
But what is the closest thing (if it exists at all...) to focus on as a flamenco guitar player, which a musical foundation can build upon?
Or it's really depends only on the spiritual side? It works on any level of musicianship, even at the very beginning?
That's why we choose our favorite player(s), because of his/her psychological attitude?
Sz
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Date Jun. 20 2019 21:48:25
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