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Cool, I had the same idea myself back when I noticed that 1980 guitar for sale. However there are several errors in the article. For a start, the 1968 guitar was his favorite guitar but not the first, it was stolen in 1979 or 80. The one he used with Manolo Sanlucar is older and is in fact probably the first negra he had. The rosettes are not the same, the older one has red triangles outside, the 1968 has green triangles outside, in other words it’s inverted IN addition the tieblocks are different style, the 19th frets different lengths, back and sides different wood etc. Ive detailed the differences here: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=316402&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
Next the reddish color guitar Ramon is using is not the same one as the 1975 he had refinished, although it is also either 1974 or 1975 by his own words. He admits it is not his best guitar but is 5 or 6 years old, in 1980 interview with guitar trio. The rosette has a different orientation, though it looks similar. Other details are strikingly different. He only used it 1980-81, replaced by the 1975 guitar in 1982. Here at 1:00 you can compare the two and focus on the differences or rosette, side wood, 19th fret length etc:
Verses this different guitar here 3:00, the 1975 he used until his death, it was refinished in 2005 and is the same guitar featured at Mundo flamenco, it is not different. They changed the inner portion of rosette but outer rings are the same, faceplate of head stock and tuners were changed but entire rest of the guitar is same as this:
Also, you missed a super important instrument that he used for cante. Also 1968, a blanca, pictured whenever he performed with camaron early on, also a picture with Mairena in 1974 shows this guitar with the same wear below the tap plate. It has a unique cross grain on the heel when viewed from down and behind the neck. Ramon uses it here (notice Ramon always used one of his main guitars throughout his career, and later the tour with Canizares and Bandera we see those 3 guitars were all Paco’s own instruments as they passed them around on stage):
I would say it was his main guitar for cante through the 1970’s, including on recordings. Here he plays Taranta, Buleria, Solea, then passes it over to his best friend Carlos for the Rumba. Note that the negra used for zapateado is the earliest negra I described above, same as Sevillanas:
Here on stage live at 5:58, probably before accompanying some singers, but not the Teatro Real as described:
Not sure why he hung it up, but I later identified it in this documentary, refinished, used at his beach home in Mexico:
There is another blanca with orange tap plates that he kept in his home in spain, seen when he plays on the couch in the rito y geografia and in the back ground of his last documentary La busqueda. And finally there is a very worn negra that he pulled out briefly I notice in photos and videos in 1980 only. Obviously its when his 1968 guitar was stolen. He settled on using the other guitar I described in 1980, for use on Castro Marin, Friday night in Sanfran, and solo quiero caminar. However we do have these two clips of this other guitar, by the wear I can tell he used it a lot.
Here in the interview at 1:55:
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Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
quote:
ORIGINAL: conderio
Hello Ricardo, thank you very much for your remarks. My article deals mainly with Negra guitars with spruce tops and shows only a few examples.
I take a look at the details and we can exchange ideas again. For this I need some time ...
Take your time. I have compiled lots of photo and video evidence on each guitar, and have educated solid ideas for what instrument is used on what recording. I’m always on the lookout for one of the main instruments that might pop up for sale. If you purchased the the 1980 guitar used w cañizares, congratulations that’s pretty awesome!
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Hi Conderio and Ricardo,
This is really nice and informative work, thanks a lot!
@Conderio, "PACO'S SECOND 1975 FAUSTINO HERMANOS CONDE" is listed on the main page as German spruce top, rosewood back and sides, but on the photo gallery page it says Spruce and Cypress. Which one is correct?
I agree with you about the 1968. The one from La Busqueda/Saura Film is another and probably his first Negra. The tieblock is different. The color of the triangles in the rosette also seems to be different.
The red one of Ramon is also a different one. It's not one of Paco's two 75s. The Conde, where he plays Patino, looks like it has a cedar top?
The two from 1975 are different guitars for me. The writing especially the 7 and 5 on the label are clearly different.
What do you think?
Best, Ingo
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RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to Ricardo)
Tkank you on congrats for purchasing the 1980. I am quite happy with it. It has the typical Paco sound of that era. Playing such an instrument is a different feeling ...
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Where is the label photo of the 'first 1975" from? On your site next to the 'first 1975' all the other the videos and photos are the same guitar as mundo flamenco which you call 'second 1975'. It has a distinctive grain pattern on the upper bout treble side.
In your close up photo the handwritten '1975' does look different. Also it appears that the printed label itself is different? Have a look at the 'Sobrinos de Esteso' line. It doesn't extend as far, the spacing between letters is different. Also look at the word CONDE the 'C' is larger than 'ONDE'. Compared to label of the 1975 guitar at Mundo Flamenco.
It's seems like the printed label is similar to this example:
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RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
I think it's two different 75's. The rosettes are different and back and sides too. The first one has Pauferro Ironwood Rosewood and the Mundo probably too, but wood is darker. and grain is similar, but different. The point is the 7 and 5 on the labels are different. Here is the clip where the label of the first 75 is from. Paco‘s first 75
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
quote:
I think it's two different 75's. The rosettes are different and back and sides too. The first one has Pauferro Ironwood Rosewood and the Mundo probably too, but wood is darker. and grain is similar, but different. The point is the 7 and 5 on the labels are different. Here is the clip where the label of the first 75 is from. Paco‘s first 75
I put two pictures of what you call 'first 75' and 'second 75' mirrored. The grain looks very similar. Maybe the same guitar? Or perhaps they are guitars made at the same time, from side wood sets cut one after other, from the same block? (The rosettes are different because the inner tiles have been replaced. On the mundo flamenco close up photo you can see where this was done).
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RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Well, i see your points. I go for the same wood block. The handwriting on the label - especially the 7 and 5 are different. I don't believe, that the label was replaced too.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
quote:
ORIGINAL: conderio
Well, i see your points. I go for the same wood block. The handwriting on the label - especially the 7 and 5 are different. I don't believe, that the label was replaced too.
Likes and differences: Likes: 1. Side wood is not similar it is identical. 2. Soundboard has unique v shape grain below bridge to bottom edge. 3. Outer rings of rosette are identical. 4. Tie block and fret lengths, 5. 1975 is the date. Sound is quite identifiable as well.
Differences 1. Finish color 2. Inner tiles of rosette 3. Veneered Headstock face plate 4. Tuners tap plate etc 5. Label (can’t find corroborating evidence ie clear photos, but admit it’s suspect).
We asked (flamencoguru emailed and received response) juan Estrada Paco’s then manager who said it’s the same guitar Paco used for decades but refinished. I asked Paco de malaga who asked Ramón de Algeciras about this. Apparently Paco sent the Guitar to get touched up in 2005 as he always did before tours since 1997 or so when the red finish was repaired.... when PDL picked up the guitar and saw it completely worked over he was like WTF?!? An apparent superstition forced PDL to keep using this guitar on stage despite the instrument being uncomfortable and having gone through hell and back.
I admit that differences 2, 3, and 5 are quite odd, especially if not requested by Paco, so the story I have suggests. Perhaps some mistakes were made and these changes were done to cover it up? The inner tile rosette clearly reflects the style of the PDL,model Carrillo on the market at that time. I now feel that 3 and 5 could imply a changing of neck and back together, in order to keep the box functioning and original? The neck change might have damaged the rosette in the process so Carrillo inserted his PDL model rosette to fix it.? The label also could have been damaged, it’s not an impossible thought that it was replaced.
At the end of the day the likenesses out weigh the differences IMO in terms of what could be changed realistically verses what might be a coincidence of twin guitars.
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Well, I don't know what to believe. Actually I doesn't matter to me if there are 2 guitars from 1975 or not. Everything would be feasible in terms of craftsmanship - for sure the labels are different - printing and writing.
So, Juan Estrada confirmed, that there is only one from 1975 respectively the #1 '75 was restored to the #2 '75? Well, he should know!
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Hi, It’s the same stage guitar (Pauferro back and sides) restored in 2005 by Vicente Carrillo. It’s been the main stage guitar of Paco in the last 15 years. The rosette had to be touched up as that area of the top had been damaged and it was bare wood.
The real question is how the guitar is braced. The seventies and particularly ‘74 are a turning point for the Condes. I found Condes of those years still recalling the typical 60 Condes and other guitars already already very similar to those made up to ‘89.
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Check the link again.
Do you think '75 #1 was refinsihed twice? Original condition see photo from Carmen movie. Rosette color in original condition - also look at the grain of the sides. Then first refinish rosette was overpainted. Second refinish as already discussed ...
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
I refer to the 2nd ‘75 guitar of your website, which is a difficult guitar (hard pulsacion) and which Paco preferred for the tours in his last years. He said he never played that guitar at home (he had a glass shelves with 10 guitars for the purpose) and used to keep it in the case ready for the stages.
A common friend (a German guy) told me he played it and shared some opinions with me.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
quote:
ORIGINAL: conderio
Check the link again.
Do you think '75 #1 was refinsihed twice? Original condition see photo from Carmen movie. Rosette color in original condition - also look at the grain of the sides. Then first refinish rosette was overpainted. Second refinish as already discussed ...
The 1975 guitar tap plate was fixed in 1983 (see photo 1982).... not surprised if finish work was done as well. The visible refinish in red happened in 1984 it seems. Perhaps he had touch ups since then? The guitar was cracked in late 80’s and he covered crack with tape:
Repeat golpe strikes damaged above rosette in 1990, it got worse until 1997, when he had the guitar refinished again in red. Apparently he kep the guitar regularly touched up, new tuners and plates probably, until 2005 when it was completely worked over. That seems to be the division you are noticing when the same guitar turned into Frankenstein or roboguitar. I guess you can say it’s two different instruments at that point.... but with understanding it’s the same body of wood. Like robocop lol.
The guitar pictured with Paco in headphones IS NOT the same guitar. That’s a different guitar as I described in earlier post... please zoom in on rosette to see it has a different orientation. As I said THAT guitar replaced the stolen one, Paco’s own words, and used for Castro Marin solo Quiero caminar and Friday night in Sanfrancisco. It is also 1974 or 75.
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RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
Now, i am confused ...
Summary:
1975: Probably serveral times refinished before mutating into 1975 #2 (IMO the headphone guitar is this one as well - rosette is same, same one in Carmen movie - look at the grain.)
1974/75: Ramon's reddish guitar used for friday nite etc. same rosette, but different graining, different guitar
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Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia‘s stage guitars (in reply to conderio)
quote:
IMO the headphone guitar is this one as well - rosette is same, same one in Carmen movie - look at the grain.
Very simply incorrect. The rosette outer rings are a different orientation and style. The Moscow guitar rosette is however identical to the headphone one (or at least closer in style than the 1975). To eyeball it, focus on outer ring design and note the elongated light colored sections, there are 5 between the fingerboard curving around to 6th string on the 1975 Carmen guitar. Also the mundonflamenco photos show the same exact outer ring orientation. The guitar with headphones (Friday night guitar same) has only 4&1/2 sections there.... in other words it’s a slightly different design, size, and orientation. Moscow guitar same deal, but I admit it could be a different guitar that just happened to have superficial twin aesthetics.
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