Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

joselito_fletan

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017

Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck

I have handed my guitar to a local shop here in Rota Cadiz for a tune up. They have discovered that my neck has warped between the 7 and 10-12th fret more or less.

the advice given to me:

option A:
Refret the neck to adjust for the warp, cheapest solution 55 Euros.
I told the shop that I do not mind paying more for a fix that would take away the warped neck.

option B:
The answer given to me was that the neck could be put true again, and they would also reinforce it as it is a very thin mastil, he mentioned about wetting the neck and putting it back in place, new fingerboard and frets. No standard pricing but said between 250 to 400 euros for such a job, depending on what he could work with. Also would take a longer time to fix.

It was suggested to me to take the first option, and if was not satisfied to take the other route. It is an older 1996 Conde EF4 with upgraded Conde Titanium clavijeros/tuners purchased at the Felipe V shop in Madrid by my father when I was a much younger lad

. It is a great sounding guitar for being the segunda and have always been complimented on its sound.

my question being is option A a viable solution?, and I do not really understand what he is planing on doing to the frets to compensate for the warp in the neck.

Cheers and Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 13:02:36

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

It sounds like the shop is giving you good advice.

For option A, I believe they are suggesting removing the existing frets and then planing the fingerboard to remove the warp and adjust the action. This will more than likely lead to the fingerboard being slightly thinner at the nut area than originally, but it will be straight and pointing in the right direction. Once the fingerboard is prepared then new frets will be put on. The repair might not even be noticeable to a casual observer.

The thing to consider is there will not be a lot of fingerboard removed from the area of the warp, so the structure shouldn’t be further weakened in that area. But the neck area from the nut to the fifth fret will likely be a little bit thinner, which you might notice. Then again, you might like the new feel.

IMO, the shop is suggesting a prudent course of action, which adds to their credibility. Assuming the fingerboard is thick enough, and I think they would tell you if it isn’t, then Option A is a viable solution and well worth considering.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 17:04:03

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

It occurs to me that they might be considering compression fretting for option A. That is a technique where frets with thicker tangs would be installed in the area of warpage, in the hopes that the pressure of the thicker tangs in the fret slots will remove the warp. It’s a valid technique and if they are able to do that then it is also worth considering.

I suspect they are probably thinking about what I first suggested for option A, however. Being able to compression fret would depend on their fret inventory. It used to be frets with the same crown dimensions but different tang widths were readily available, but it’s not so much the case these days.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 17:09:31

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

In my opinion the shop just meant to put new taller frets, level down with a flat straight plate and re-crown the frets, without planing the actual fretboard at all. 55 euros are anyway few money for the job. I’d go for this option as it’s also the less invasive.
A second option (not mentioned by the shop) is to remove the frets, to flat down a little the actual fretboard, to glue some new ebony on top of it and to install new frets. Very common and also good. A luthier did this job on my former main guitar (a Ricardo Sanchis) and it worked just fine.
The third option (option B) meant to remove the fretboard, unwarp the neck with wather and heat and install new fretboard and frets.
I’m familiar with the 3 options and just recently I did the last treatment to my ‘64 Sobrinos (in my case I didn’t use water but just added a carbon fibre renforcement under the fretboard). It worked just perfectly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 17:44:39

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

Normally I agree with Echi, but in this case I don’t know why my first explanation isn’t being considered as a possibility for the option A.

Dressing the fingerboard during a refret is a pretty standard procedure. I don’t know why a shop would go to the trouble to pull all the frets, put in higher new ones and then try to achieve the straightening by filing down the frets. It just seems to be a half-assed way to do things when adjusting the fretboard is so easy to do, and is also the proper technique.

The second option mentioned by Echi could be considered if it is a thin fingerboard. It’s less intrusive than a full removal and replacement.

If they say their option A is for high frets and then a filing down, I would suggest looking for a new shop.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 18:22:52

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

On further reflection, I guess Echi means the cost is so low that they are probably talking about doing a partial refret, where only the frets between 7 and 12 are replaced with higher ones. In that case they’ve more or less given you an “all or nothing” type of choice between the bare minimum and a full out bells and whistles one.

I would question why they aren’t suggesting any middle options. The partial refret isn’t doing anything to address the change in neck angle caused by the warp. But seeing the guitar is the only way to avoid all this speculation, maybe there is enough saddle and string height at the bridge to allow this option.

Question: does “mastil” mean fingerboard? If it does, how thin is it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 18:41:16

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

It all depends what it's effecting at the end of the day. What do you mean by warped any way?

In general Option A is always preferred as it's the least intrusive. Less can go wrong.

Option B should only be considerred if option A won't make the guitar playable.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 19:55:34

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

Hi Rob,
I just tried to understand the issue and the possible answer of the repair person.
In my understanding, the neck in this case is very thin and after some years it has lifted up a little towards the headstock.
If this is the case, to remove wood towards the headstock (without adding any new wood on top of it) would end up in a thinner fretboard and then in more neck relief.
My guess is that the shop just offered a refretting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 21:40:34

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to Echi)

Yeah, I think you’re probably right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 21:52:37

joselito_fletan

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

Thanks for all the replies gentlemen. To answer some possible doubts here is some info, I do not have the guitar on me anymore so I cannot take pics.

I took the guitar in to the shop, cause I found that the guitar needed some work.

A:
it had some nasty buzzing in the lower freats, which happen to be frets 7-8 and down to the 12th

B:
my treble E string was very loose and way out of tension (less tension to be exact) compared to the others.

C: my frets down the neck were also unequal/leveled, higher on one side that the other along the length of the fret.

D: My bordon "D" string just did not sound like a proper "D" I cannot explain it well, but when i get together with other friends for a juerga, their might be several guitars in on the action and when we tune our guitars together my D just sounds out of place compared to the guitars around me.

My mastil I mean the part of the guitar, from the tacon where the neck meets the body to the headstock where the clavijeros are. Please forgive my miss use of definitions as construction is not my strength.

The guy at the shop who talked to the luthier told me the guitar had "comba en el mastil" which I translate to a warped neck??? The luthier fixing the guitar sent me some voice messages explaining more or less my options, which I have tried to explain above. And Yes yes he gave me a third option which I cannot remember off the top of my head.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2019 23:41:17

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

That they are providing you with multiple options on a sliding scale should reassure you. Perhaps ask them to start with the least intrusive option and to let you know if during the repair they feel they should move further up the scale to something more involved.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2019 13:53:16

joselito_fletan

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

quote:

That they are providing you with multiple options on a sliding scale should reassure you. Perhaps ask them to start with the least intrusive option and to let you know if during the repair they feel they should move further up the scale to something more involved.

Thank You

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2019 15:35:52

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Fixing a warped Mastil/Neck (in reply to joselito_fletan)

I agree with the others that it is probably best to see how Option A goes first. However, a nice thing about fixing the neck by installing reinforcement is that it should not ever warp again. I have fixed a few guitars that didn't have any neck reinforcement by removing the fingerboard, routing a channel in the neck, installing pultruded carbon fiber reinforcement, and then gluing the fingerboard (or a new one) back on. Clamping with the reinforcement installed pulls out the warp. Now I always install reinforcement to begin with.