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I just discovered this singer this morning and have been listening to her two albums while working in the shop. El Mal Querer is pretty recent, I think it was released this month, but she had an earlier release last year, “Los Ángeles”, so maybe she’s old news for the Foro.
She’s Catalan and apparently has been accused of cultural appropriation because of the flamenco influences she has in her music. I don’t get any sense of this, I think it is what it is, but regardless, I really like what she’s doing and she’s got a great voice, IMO.
I’ve seen some of her stuff on YouTube the past couple of years. Don’t really care for her pop stuff or her “little girl” voice thing she does sometimes but She had some old videos of her singing pure flamenco in a Pena where she let it rip ...but she took them down. Apparently she studied cante at a conservatory and she seems pretty talented. wish she would do some more flamenco.
Listened to the album, and it sounds very good, she got some talent there! I guess cultural appropriation here is just some despicable way to make nonsense criticism to her music.
Ricardo, you had your gateway with the Gipsy Kings. She might be a gateway for millennials.
I wish Morante was still around, too. But I still like what she does (a lot) and also really like the new Potito and Mercé releases, too, and I don’t think I’m lacking taste or the ability to discern talent. It doesn’t all have to be about guitars and old-school.
lads, at end of day music is taste, id rather listen to tomate, merce, moraito on a daily basis than Rosalia.
That said, Omega by Enrique Morente, was not my cup of tea first time i listened to it, but its growing on me.
plus, thing that gets me lately, is alot of the top flamenco guitarists get away with recycling material on solo albums, cante accomp etc. is there a stinginess on creativity or do they hold out the new material for their new albums?
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to henrym3483)
I’ve wondered the same. Why save your ammunition when flamenco is already dead! For the predominantly solo guitarist Vicente recycles - or doesn’t use good falsetas, Tomatito has been playing the same material since Paseo de los Castanos (one of the greatest albums of all time). But Paco didn’t always hold out. But the thing is, I don’t really see a good reason to save your new falsetas for a solo album - it’s not going to effect album sales in this day and age. Maybe they just don’t have new material or the ideas are not developed yet to their liking.
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I bet if she showed up and sang at one of your local flamenco jams nobody would be saying she sucks. I think she’s a real-deal artist making her own way in her own style. She self-produced both her albums prior to being picked up by Sony.
At any rate, I didn’t post about her to be contentious. I had considered posting it in the off topic section but I think what she is doing is actually relevant to flamenco, even if it’s not purely flamenco itself.
I did a bit of digging and here is how she put it in an interview:
“The way you have described your relationship with your flamenco teacher, El Chiqui, I get the image in my head of the Karate Kid and Mr. Miyagi.
- Yes, exactly. The world I grew up in is so instantaneous, so [snaps fingers]. In flamenco, you don’t know anything. Start again. Again. It doesn’t come out. Again. Patience. Patience. Years. Four years and I still don’t know how to sing. Five years, ****, still not there. And I have to keep going. And it blows my mind, because in flamenco, age is good. The best singers are old. That’s what made me think, “OK. I have my whole life to get better at this, and I will always have something to learn.”
Los Ángeles was rooted in flamenco, but it wasn’t a traditional take on the genre. Were you criticized for it?
- Many people said, “This isn’t flamenco.” Maybe it even made them mad. In flamenco, because it’s so strictly codified, there are people that have a very narrow way of looking at it, and if you deviate from that, you’re ****ing around with something sacred. To me, you should do things with respect and with love, but there’s nothing that’s untouchable.”
Interview was by Philip Sherburne for Pitchfork magazine (found online).
i've seen on other forums where raul referee, nino de elche and Rosalia, have been branded a cancer on current flamenco...
at end of day its down to taste, the stuff with Nino de Elche and Referee, that makes me cringe beyond belief, and i cant understand whats the purpose behind it. i appreciate the avant garde stuff, but imho, they respect the tradition of flamenco, they just paint with different colors on the same canvas.
i've been accused of being a staunch purist, from some people, regarding my tastes.
I like alot of old stuff, its good, and there's a lot of old artists i havn't had the opportunity to listen to yet.
if i had the choice of listening any day, lately its been, manuel moneo, el torta, agujetas, capullo, el chocolate and mairena or caracol...
other times, i listen to argentina, arcangel, poveda etc.
She doesn't do anything for me. Neither her "pop" nor her "little girl" voice mentioned by Jason are particularly inspiring.
I have to say, though, that to accuse her of "cultural appropriation" because she might exhibit some flamenco influence in her music is just plain stupid. The whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is rampant at US universities these days. We in the US have become so balkanized with our different "tribes" (Black dorms, Hispanic dorms, etc.) and sensitive little snowflakes, that anything out of the received wisdom of your narrow ethnic lane is considered "cultural appropriation."
I suppose eating tacos and frijoles refritos is appropriating Mexican culture. And of course all the non-Spaniards on this Foro are guilty of attempting to appropriate Spanish (specifically Andalusian) culture. And the rest of the world wearing Levi jeans are guilty of appropriating American culture.
The ignorami who complain about "cultural appropriation" have no idea about the exchange of culture and ideas among various ethnic groups throughout history. If they had their way, history would be preserved in amber.
I have no idea how "flamenco" this woman is or can be, but she is not guilty of "appropriating" anyone's culture. If, as I suspect, those who accuse her of such are gitanos from Andalusia, I suggest that they reflect on the origins of what they consider their own "precious" flamenco culture, and how much of it was "appropriated" (to use their term) from the Moors and Sephardic Jews.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I spent a lot of time today wondering if I shouldn’t have started this thread, it sure feels like a mistake. I agree with Henry that it all comes down to taste, so maybe I shouldn’t feel too bad - I still get to enjoy her work, lol.
I first heard her music yesterday. The day before that I didn’t know she existed, so I had no idea how controversial a figure she has become in Spain. But, to me, if she’s so controversial then maybe it’s because she’s doing something right, maybe the discourse is overdue and needed.
She gets hit from all sides! The video Andy linked to was done on a low budget with her and her sister picking out her outfits and doing the makeup. For that she gets slammed for being a rich white kid from Barcelona. She expresses pride in the influence of women in her work and says she wants to move towards equal parity between the sexes for involvement in her future productions. For that, she gets slammed by the feminists for not blowing the proper dog-whistles and not being angry enough. She uses Andalusian iconography in videos and gets slammed for that - nope, not allowed, not yours to use, you have to thank us first. And on and on.
Pepe Habichuela says he loves her voice and Vicente Amigo says he loves her music, but on here...she sucks...dismissed. I don’t know...really?
I think flamenco is going to evolve however it may, regardless. These disputes have been going on forever. There is a huge amount of respect for the art in Spain and worldwide. The young Spanish artists, at least the ones not tied into some of the dynasties with the implied commitment to furthering the family business, are going to do with it whatever they please, and the fallout will be what it will be. But it’s always been that way, IMO, it’s how music and art stays alive.
Apparently, she’s moved to LA and so probably will become a big American pop star for all the people who shouldn’t be there,lol. At which point Spain will unite and be pissed off at the damn Yanks for stealing more of their treasure, I mean wasn’t copying El Ministerio del Tiempo bad enough? Then all will settle down and everything will be OK (and maybe a little bit boring) again, lol.
getting back to what taste constitutes, for me, this track, by Gerardo Nunez, was not my favorite track, off the album Travesia, but its grown on me over time.
but one day in the car, i think i understood, where this track may be coming from. its got a reference to pretty much all the elements/influences in flamenco. ie from Arabic culture, Spanish culture, African culture, ida y vuelta cuba, Caribbean, south america etc.
for some this, piece, may not appeal to flamenco purist's but you can't say gerardo's toque is not flamenco nor the piece is not flamenco, once again, comes down to taste.
She had some old videos of her singing pure flamenco in a Pena where she let it rip ...but she took them down. Apparently she studied cante at a conservatory and she seems pretty talented. wish she would do some more flamenco.
Doesn't sound to me like she can either.
Quoting a well put comment: "Llamar a esto bulería es como llamar jamón de bellota al choped"
I really enjoyed the Rosalia album, I think she's a talent irrespective of genre. Anything that popularises or raises awareness of the Flamenco art form is a good thing in my book.
She inspired me to create electronic music with Flamenco guitar sounds and rhythms. Maybe I'll share some of my songs here when I've finished developing the ideas.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH)
Cultural appropriation? To assess my transgressions I must first determine my native culture.
As an eight-year old in San Antonio, Texas I used to drive my mother crazy tuning the radio to conjunto, cumbia and Tejano stations. She didn’t speak Spanish, so the breathless shouted commercials particularly annoyed her. Having learned “educated” Spanish in the homes of my two best buddies, I found the commercials almost as funny as a Cantinflas movie. When my mother tuned the radio to her preferred 1930s big band swing, I headed to the shoe repair shop at the corner of south Flores street, where the men turned up the music loud enough to be heard above the noise of the machines. I may have taken my first step on the downward path of appropriation in those days. When I organized a band in high school in the early 1950s, there was plenty of 1930s swing in the repertoire. It was the surest way to get the kids out onto the dance floor.
I spent many a warm summer evening on my grandmother’s back porch in the tiny south Texas town of Raymondville, listening to the teenager across the alley playing beautifully lyrical mariachi trumpet. When they came around in the 5th grade in Oklahoma City, asking if we would like to play an instrument, I chose the trumpet without hesitation. However, my teacher didn’t know any mariachi, so I learned standard Amercan brass band music, a decided departure from my native culture.
“Native” is a bit problematic. Extensive paperwork and a little DNA testing say that I am 100% from Scandinavia and England. Except for learning English first, and indoctrination as a Protestant, my preferences in music and food would have clearly labelled me as Mexican-American. Perhaps I was fated for a sinful career of cultural appropriation. My father was in the military. I had 20 addresses before I was 21 years old.
As we moved around I pursued my criminal instincts, dipping into jazz and classical. I even sunk as low as 1950s pop, to respond to requests at school dances. My trumpeting career ended after my second year at University, when my math and physics class schedule diverged from those of the Symphony and Concert Band.
Though dreadfully pocho by then, I honored my true Mexican heritage by turning to the guitar. Of course there was not a trio romantico teacher in thoroughly gringo Austin in 1957, nor was there a classical teacher up to the level I was lucky enough to encounter on the trumpet, while in high school in a Washington DC suburb. But the flamenco students of the Englishman (ahem) Eddie Freeman clearly knew what they were up to. And so, another offense was added to my cultural appropriation rap sheet.
I write this from a log cabin with a foot of snow on the roof in Takeetna, Alaska. In a few minutes I will get out my Abel Garcia classical from Paracho, and work on some Spanish vihuela music from the 16th century, having arrived at a surprisingly advanced age as a hardened sinner of eclecticism.
As I noted in my comment above, the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is one more ludicrous example of the shallow, solipsistic, self-absorbed attitude found among the ignorami inhabiting universities and among certain ethnic groups who lay sole claim to attributes they consider belonging only to them. It ranks right up there with "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces."
It is ironic that in this age where "diversity" is touted as the coin of the realm, true diversity, i.e., the exchange and sharing of culture, is considered verboten by those blinded by their own brand of orthodoxy. These ignorant snowflakes appear to have no understanding of the role the exchange of cultural attributes has played throughout history.
What was so egregiously wrong about the accusation of "cultural appropriation" hurled at the woman who is the subject of this thread was that it appeared to have been made by Andalusian gitanos. While they may consider flamenco a defining aspect of their culture, they apparently do not recognize how much "cultural appropriation" they are guilty of by historically appropriating Moorish and Sephardic Jewish elements and incorporating them into flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I agree with those on here who have decided that she's really bad in the context of flamenco but is really cool in the context of pop music.
I also love that her new album is based on "Flamenca," which speaks to her engagement with Catalán cultural identity. "Flamenca" was written in Old Occitan and is part of the medieval troubadour canon (it's a cool read). The main hub for the troubadours was the south of France and the areas of Spain in which Catalán is currently spoken, and in fact, the closest surviving language to Old Occitan is Catalán (they have the same dipthongs and everything, it's kind of eery). So clearly she's a thoughtful artist who is doing a lot to try to parse the cultural mixture from which she has emerged, navigating questions of appropriation by self-consciously playing around with context, arrangement, and referentiality.
I went ahead and read the Pitchfork review of her album, though, and found that the way in which people in North America are talking about the flamenco elements of her work is somewhat concerning. They're doing that thing you see sometimes where people pay lip service to the idea that flamenco is from Andalucía before treating it as if it's this nationalized Spanish folk music and, even more importantly, erasing or not mentioning the indispensable and primary role of gitanos in the development and preservation of the music.
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
What was so egregiously wrong about the accusation of "cultural appropriation" hurled at the woman who is the subject of this thread was that it appeared to have been made by Andalusian gitanos. While they may consider flamenco a defining aspect of their culture, they apparently do not recognize how much "cultural appropriation" they are guilty of by historically appropriating Moorish and Sephardic Jewish elements and incorporating them into flamenco.
I thought about not saying anything about this, but it's just too silly.
The whole point of cultural appropriation as a concept is that it exists relative to power. If a black artist were to, say, make use of melodic structures from German folk music, that wouldn't be appropriative. But when someone who is part of the group in power in a given society/country/state/economy takes something from a marginalized group, then the question of appropriation arises. Since the group in power is already contributing to the marginalized group's precarious situation, the idea of someone from the former group taking a cultural practice from the latter group and saying 'this is ours' only intensifies the precarity of the marginalized culture.
Now, I don't think appropriation is a cut-and-dry issue. If you're part of a privileged culture, race or class, you can absolutely use elements belonging to marginalized groups, so long as you do so in such a way that you are ensuring that your debt to the marginalized group is both acknowledged and apparent, and that you are interested in using what you took in such a way that it benefits those from whom it has been taken.
Usually the voices attempting to essentialize issues like cultural appropriation by claiming that it either 'doesn't exist' or is 'always bad' are the loudest, but they're almost never correct or helpful.
On the topic of the Andalusian gitanos: the first gitanos arrived in Spain in 1422, but they didn't start settling the area in great numbers until the 16th century. The Jews were expelled in 1492, and by then, Sephardic music had already fused with Moorish music to form what was preserved elsewhere as "música andalusí." By the time the Moriscos were expelled in 1609, there may well have been some kind of proto-flamenco music around, but there's no mention of anything resembling it until the 18th century. And that doesn't even scrape the surface of the treatment of the gitanos in Spain from 1499 until 1783 (the 1740s were probably the most egregious decade, in my opinion) -- the idea that they could have been abusing their power by repurposing existing musical forms is inaccurate simply because they had next to no power. So using the Andalusian gitanos as your main argument against the existence of cultural appropriation seems...misguided.
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music)
Right on, tf10. The Great Whites of North America are reluctant to recognise their privilege and the insidious effects on the structurally marginalised in society. That's also why we in our various continents are stricken politically and socially at the moment.
Can you tell me though, and I'm serious, how am I to acknowledge the society and the originators of delta/country blues from the 20s 30s etc. if it is unlikely to ever reach the 'earning money' end of things? I want to use that as a device with other traditional instrumentation but to use the concepts current in improvisatory modern jazz. I have already seen this done to great effect with New Orleans marching jazz. I stopped working on the project actually, for fear of such criticism and not having an answer. But, I LOVE that music - it speaks to me somehow. But now I wonder if that 'somehow' is really only a romantic nostalgia for someone else's pain; something similar having been said about our passion for the music of dispossessed Andalucía, from a sedentary position.
Unfortunately we now live in a time of immediate knee jerk categorisation but I agree cultural appropriation does have a question to be answered, beyond going to a pub for 'Mexican Night'.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music)
quote:
quote:
What was so egregiously wrong about the accusation of "cultural appropriation" hurled at the woman who is the subject of this thread was that it appeared to have been made by Andalusian gitanos. While they may consider flamenco a defining aspect of their culture, they apparently do not recognize how much "cultural appropriation" they are guilty of by historically appropriating Moorish and Sephardic Jewish elements and incorporating them into flamenco.
I thought about not saying anything about this, but it's just too silly.
The whole point of cultural appropriation as a concept is that it exists relative to power. If a black artist were to, say, make use of melodic structures from German folk music, that wouldn't be appropriative. But when someone who is part of the group in power in a given society/country/state/economy takes something from a marginalized group, then the question of appropriation arises. Since the group in power is already contributing to the marginalized group's precarious situation, the idea of someone from the former group taking a cultural practice from the latter group and saying 'this is ours' only intensifies the precarity of the marginalized culture.
What is "too silly" is the channeling of your inner Antonio Gramsci and your mis-application of his notion of Hegemony. The "concept" of "cultural appropriation" as being relative to power is your notion, presumably to be used (as is fashionable today) to leverage against those you accuse of "marginalizing" others. But you cannot have it both ways. If you are going to consider "cultural appropriation" a valid concept (which I do not), you must recognize that it exists whether it is practiced by a so-called "marginalized" group or the group in power. To take, or borrow, cultural activities such as music, art, dance, science, etc. from one group to another has been occurring since mankind discovered groups existed other than one's own. The power relationship is irrelevant. And we have all benefited from the exchange.
You may be surprised to learn that several Foro members are well-aware of the history of Al-Andalus and subsequent events after the Reconquista. We are cognizant of historical, political, and cultural developments, as well as the development of flamenco and the influence the Moors and Sephardic Jews have had in that development. No one is denying that the Andalusian gitanos have claimed it as their own (although that violates your statement above about saying "this is ours"). My point was that the gitanos owe a debt to other elements (Moors, Sephardic Jews) in the development of flamenco. And it renders them a bit hypocritical to accuse the woman who is the subject of this thread of "cultural appropriation.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to El Burdo)
quote:
Right on, tf10. The Great Whites of North America are reluctant to recognise their privilege and the insidious effects on the structurally marginalised in society. That's also why we in our various continents are stricken politically and socially at the moment.
The "Great Whites of North America"? "Insidious effects on the structurally marginalized in society"? "That's also why we in our various continents are stricken politically and socially at the moment"? That's a lot of baggage to unpack. Sweeping statements with no evidence to support them.
The above screed is written as if the "Whites of North America" have some genetic defect. Let's review the bidding, so to speak. The Pueblo Indians (Hopis, Zunis, and others) were pastoral and had been living peacefully for centuries in the American Southwest. In the 15th century, the Navajo and Apache arrived from Canada and began raiding and pillaging the Pueblo Indians. That is why the Pueblos began building their villages as cliff dwellings, to protect against marauding Indians.
No one doubts that Hernan Cortes conquered a highly civilized Aztec Empire. Yet, Cortes did to the Aztecs (they called themselves "Mexica") what the Aztecs had done to neighboring Indian groups. The Aztecs were an empire, and they conquered others, exacting tribute and, most prominently, thousands of subjects to be used in their sacrificial rituals. In fact, the reason Cortes was able to conquer the Aztecs was because thousands of Tlaxcalan Indians accompanied his expedition in order to rid themselves of Aztec dominance.
In the 1970s, in East Africa (primarily Uganda) sub-Saharan Blacks forced all of the East Indian communities out of their countries. The East Indians were astute businessmen and entrepreneurs, and the Blacks resented them, even though they were unable to run the businesses themselves.
In the 1960s, in Indonesia and Malaysia, there were major riots in which the majority Javanese and Malays slaughtered Chinese who had been living in those countries for generations.
I could go on and on with examples that indicate to me that mankind, whether White or non-White, has been perfectly willing to ravage those not of one's own group with "insidious effects" (to use your term), but the above examples should suffice.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music)
What a load.....so I, as an entitled, rich, privileged American could play a falseta by Paco Serrano but not one by a gypsy? I mean Paco's not a gypsy as far as I know so I'd be stealing from another privileged person-no crime there. But if I cop one from some gypsy player, especially a poor one, then I'm using my privilege to marginalize a historically abused class of people, thus contributing to their further enslavement? Unless of course I announce I'm going to play said falseta, and donate a portion of my income for the betterment of the gypsy people as a whole. I hope you aren't in charge of anything.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tf10music
The whole point of cultural appropriation as a concept is that it exists relative to power. If a black artist were to, say, make use of melodic structures from German folk music, that wouldn't be appropriative. But when someone who is part of the group in power in a given society/country/state/economy takes something from a marginalized group, then the question of appropriation arises. Since the group in power is already contributing to the marginalized group's precarious situation, the idea of someone from the former group taking a cultural practice from the latter group and saying 'this is ours' only intensifies the precarity of the marginalized culture.
Now, I don't think appropriation is a cut-and-dry issue. If you're part of a privileged culture, race or class, you can absolutely use elements belonging to marginalized groups, so long as you do so in such a way that you are ensuring that your debt to the marginalized group is both acknowledged and apparent, and that you are interested in using what you took in such a way that it benefits those from whom it has been taken.
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