Spanish translation help - guitar terminology

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Steelhead

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

Spanish translation help - guitar te...

Compañeros - I am trying to properly translate an essay on an old Torres guitar, and the Spanish is too hard for me. I wonder if some of the experts here could help.
(1) The essay refers to the "junquillos" along the edge of the body. "Yellow floral patterns"?
(2) "El placado de la cabeza"?
(3) "Varetas"? Actually this whole sentence: "El vientre de la tabla armónica conforma un leve peraltado gracias a la adición de un abanico de cinco varetas (estas muestran un degradado en altura en las puntas, más acusado en la zona del puente)." Which I render something like: "The belly of the soundboard of the guitar has a slight peraltado [??] due to the addition of a fan of five varetas, whose height declines slightly, and more markedly near the bridge. "
(4) And then this sentence: "La guitarra que nos ocupa admite una restitución compositiva decididamente ARMÓNICA, revelando una aproximación de las dos 'mandorlas' o bulbos del 'ocho', prácticamente de homotecia geométrica". Yikes. "Mandorlas"? ""Bulbos de ocho"?
I would be most grateful for any help!

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Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2018 13:40:37

Steelhead

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

Oops - forgot to add: "El mástil se une a la caja mediante un zoque " What is a "zoque"? (I suppose I could translate it as "thing")

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Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2018 13:51:51

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

John Ray might be able to tackle this. He lives and works in Spain and has made at least one Torres replica.

I can spot some obvious ones

El placado de la cabeza // The head plate – ie the veneer(s) covering the head

Junquillos // Strips of light coloured wood – presumably the bindings

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2018 10:16:23

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

I am intrigued by some of this stuff. Here is some speculation about one obscure bit.

‘Mandorla’ is the Italian word for ‘almond’ but it is also used for the shape of the frame surrounding pictures of the entire body of some religious figures such as Christ or the Virgin Mary. Although usually a pointy-almond shape it is sometimes a shape based on two intersecting circles (see we are getting guitar shaped now). So for mandorla read ‘bout’ – he/she is trying to make a point about the shapes of the two bouts which are also described as ‘bulbos de ocho’ – the two shapes that make up the bulbous figure 8.

‘homotecia geométrica’ - a homothetic transformation in geometry is one that (among other things) preserves symmetry. That is if you transform one shape into another, one will look like an enlargement of the other. You could make a guitar outline by overlapping two different sized circles (all circles are mathematically similar to each other). If you imagine that you are making a guitar shape by overlapping two slightly different shapes that are roughly similar to each other I think you have arrived at what is being stated.

We had some interesting discussions here a few years about how to draw a guitar shape

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2018 10:21:44

Morante

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

quote:

What is a "zoque"?

Heel.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2018 14:56:58

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

and the two bits that weren't answered yet:

leve peraltado = slightly curved
vareta = strut

(I think...)

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2018 15:43:37

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

leve peraltado = slightly curved

Peraltada is used for 'banking' or 'hump' so a fairly literal translation could be

The belly of the harmonic table forms a slight hump/dome thanks to the addition of a fan of five struts (these show a gradient in height at the tips, more pronounced in the area of the bridge)

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2018 23:20:43

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

quote:

El mástil se une a la caja mediante un zoque

The Zoque is not just the heel but the whole system that attaches the neck to the body. We use the term spanish heel construction. So no just the outside but the inside too, so that's the slipper aswell.

They're basically saying that the neck is attached to the body using the spanish heel method.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2018 7:58:30

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

forms a slight hump/dome

That makes sense. "hump/dome" gives you a more precise 3D image of what's going on than just "curved", which I suppose could mean curved any which way. Thanks for the correction!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2018 8:50:10

Steelhead

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

Many thanks for al this help!

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Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2018 17:09:57

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

For arch or done I've heard 'bambato' also- could be italian

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 0:15:40

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

I think all of your questions have been answered. What is strange about this is that the spanish used is very academic and uses none of the specific terminology of the guitar-maker. I would suggest that is was written by someone who knows very little about guitars or that is was translated from some other language into spanish by a lay person. Do you have any information about the author or the translator?

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 6:58:37

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to johnguitar)

I had the same feeling – or possibly the work of an organologist (so-called expert in the history and classification of musical instruments) who really has expertise in just one branch of instruments. This often gives rise to unhelpful information at musical instrument auctions, often just the length of the body.

The use of “mandorla” is relatively common. I found this

“In one design, by Arnault de Zwolle (15th century), the entire body of the lute was inscribed into the mandorla - the figure formed by the two intersecting circles of the vesica piscis.”
http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-badiarov-violin-bridges-are-always.html

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 9:02:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

I'll have an order of those pulpos de ocho and a few beers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 13:33:36

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to estebanana)

May I recommend the vesica piscis Sir? Fresh in today.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 19:34:11

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to RobJe)

Sounds good. And I'll finish with the vejiga glándula, por favor.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2018 22:09:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

There are few things finer in the guitar world than braised mandorlas followed by bodegon of country rioja.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 1:37:41

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

Enough already! You can see that you have whetted our appetites Steelhead – so please tell us who wrote this stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 9:30:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

For arch or done I've heard 'bambato' also- could be italian

https://youtu.be/aMOlWmeWG5A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 16:08:37

Steelhead

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

This essay is part of the liner notes for a forthcoming CD produced by flamencologa María Luisa Martinez (with some input of mine), focusing on 19th-c. versions of rondenas, including some previously undiscovered notations of El Murciano that she unearthed and analyzed. (Cf my earlier queries about rondenas in this forum). Some of the "grabations " were done with an old Torres in a museum in Granada. I'll inform when the cd is out. I think it makes a nice contribution. (I'm not sure who authored this short essay on the guitar.) Many thanks to ppl here for their input.

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Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 14:23:29

Morante

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

quote:

María Luisa Martinez

Flamencólogos in Andalucía generally know how to use computers and databanks but don´t even know how to play palmas (Faustino Nuñez is the exception), and cannot distinguish one palo from another.

I hope María is on another level.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 14:46:46

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

It all becomes clear now, for publishing in academic journals that is exactly the language demanded. Furthermore, we can't expect the musicologists to necessarily be familiar with the guitar-maker's terms.

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 8:06:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to johnguitar)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnguitar

It all becomes clear now, for publishing in academic journals that is exactly the language demanded. Furthermore, we can't expect the musicologists to necessarily be familiar with the guitar-maker's terms.

Or even the playing and singing

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 21:38:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spanish translation help - guita... (in reply to Steelhead)

In musicology the subdiscipline of instrument ID is called organology.

Guitars are in the chordophone family...
Lordy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2018 0:04:23