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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco?
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to Leñador)
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Atta boy Lenny, I agree. Lol.
I like acts that are peripheral to flamenco like Peret and Moreno e Azucar, there's enough sexiness there.
Nuevo flamenco? There's no such thing. It's a form of greasy pop music. Where's Morante? He's not here because he has no fuccks to give about pop music with flamenco flavor.
Flamenco is not a marketable art really, you can advertise it, but really flamenco is cante and nothing else. People try to pretend it's something else, but it's not. If it turns into something else and stll gets called Flamenco then the people calling it that are simply deluded.
Like we call alligators as rabbits? Right? If you signed up for a life of flamenco or worse, expected to make a living at it, you're just crazy. Maybe a little less crazy or more crazy, but you could have read law or medicine, or become a nurse or trash collector. But you didn't. And that gives you the right to be snobby and force a real definition on flamenco.
Weirdly however I think the more fakemenco the better. Fakemenco is a gateway drug to theater based flamenco, and the people who work in cuadros are a higher level of music that is very disciplined and should rightly be called cuadro flamenco, it's really flamenco, but it's not a small gathering of serious aficionados. It's usually pretty good stuff, and the faux flamenco that exists helps cuadro settings get exposure. Like how guitarists learn about flamenco by hearing Paco or Manitas records.
I know a guy who is the editor of a national magazine that features articles about politics, culture and sports and is read by half the people in the US. One weekend he invited me to a yearly party he had at his cabin complex in the MTS. Near Yosemite. He has these 1960s vintage Klipsch speakers and a HiFi set- plus a vast record collection. My friend knows I'm into flamenco and that weekend he dug out a box of Manitas de Plata records for me to check out and presented me with the box as if he was handing me his favorite puppy.
I took to looking through the box and said "Oh man, thisvis wonderful. Thank you I'll be digging in here to check it out." I directed my enthusiasm in such a way that I channeled my feelings of being cared for by a friend who wanted me to share I his vinyl treasure trove, and not a privileged snarky flamenco head.
See, why be a dick? Fakemenco and less hardcore flamenco work for most people. But it's still fair and correct to call flamenco cante only.
Being honest about what flamenco is and being ok with fakemenco are not mutually exclusive thoughts. I side with Morante of this, but I also don't have a problem with people who want to play gypsy Kings songs. I just may stay away from that party. I say this to say no such thing as new flamenco, just exists flamenco and the flamenco derived musics. It's point of nuance I think is important...
Am I being dick? Seriously tell me if I'm being a dick, I've had way too much Ambien the last week to tell.
JK....
Only Roseanne acts like a dick on Ambien. I can be a dick without drugs.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 7 2018 3:20:22
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Nuevo flamenco? There's no such thing.
Agreed. That a definition of the term cannot even be agreed upon by those who use it should relegate it to the trash can. Which is where most of the trash masquerading under the term belongs. "Pop-ish" flamenco, four saxaphones with flamenco "influence," and the other disasters ("Let's introduce the French horn as a flamenco instument." "Oh, how cool will that be!") are degrading what was once a beautiful genre and art form.
("Let's feed Kanye West some 'nuevo' cante to work on. The old cante is so hard to understand and boring, and it's in a foreign language," shrieked the young girl who loves fusion. That she can identify something as "fusion" makes her feel "up to date.")
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 7 2018 14:47:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to formos)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: formos
I know most here are hardcore fans of traditional flamenco (I do too), but I was just wondering if anyone here also appreciate some of the more Modern, Pop'ish, New Age style of Spanish Flamenco guitar? They're generally more fusion like and sound quite like the "smooth jazz" version of flamenco or Spanish guitar.
Jesse Cook, Ottmar Liebert, Armik, Gypsy Kings comes to mind.
Does anyone have any guitarists that they like that fall into this category? If so, what are some songs that you like ? :)
The three guitar trio albums are what inspired this genre imo and you can’t get better than that: Friday night in San Francisco, passion grace and fire, the Guitar Trio. After that and the three guys own work of course, the only ones that impressed me were Strunz and Farah , of which only two albums really stand out, Primal magic and Americas
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Date Jun. 7 2018 14:55:44
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
I sympathise with this view, but surely it’s simpler than this.
Flamenco grew as an artistic expression of largely marginalised and oppressed people. It was preserved locally through families and dynasties but with a constant creative streak adding to the existing canon. If you want to “go back” you have to either recreate the social conditions of the period (impossible) or try to reproduce the old stuff faithfully.
What has happened is that flamenco has continued to change and develop making it a living art. Trying to preserve the spirit of the old stuff is laudable and we can argue fruitlessly about successes and failures. What happens under the name flamenco inevitably reflects the social conditions of our age.
So if we look at another genre which I will loosely call “Jazz” we can look at one of its founding influences - field hollers - cried out my slaves and share croppers. Although we don’t have original recordings, there are versions made by people who were old enough to remember the originals. We hear the birth of the blues. Nobody has argued about bringing back the social conditions that gave rise to the blues – yet!
I got into flamenco when Paco was still a small child. So when people talk about getting rid of the awful stuff I am reminded of an old guitarist who lived in Cordoba (older than me and no longer with us). He said that Paco and Camarón had ruined flamenco.
Rob
I wouldn't want the social conditions that flamenco developed in to be replicated, that's not nice or practical. Things are bad enough for low in come people now. flamenco doesn't exist in a purified bubble either. What I meant by not marketable is that flamenco that is non stage flamenco happens when people get together, it's an intimate thing. That thing is difficult to market so stage shows get marketed. Stage shows are great, but that other rarer to get into aspect of flamenco as a gathering of tight aficionados is harder to access. And nor for the general public. There is still an aspect of jazz that correlates to the intimate flamenco gathering.
Also I find the constant analogy of flamenco to blues and jazz is getting a little toasty. Americans in particular use it because jazz is the entry point for them, and also guitar. The musics have some interesting connections that are not on the surface that go back to Africa, but we stick to a work song agrarian toilers of the earth origin. That's true, but there's more from Africa.
And jazz was and is packaged to please general public audiences, but not so much the jazz heads that will follow say Cecil Taylor or even Coltrane. Coltrane still scares people and he's probably the most important musician of the late 20th century, across all genera. ( yes I said that)
Speaking of Coltrane, there's a cache of lost recordings from 1963 being released by Impulse! on June 28th. History lives.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 9 2018 0:30:15
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
“Sabicas plays too many notes. All that showoff stuff is not really flamenco.”
Perhaps, but the so-called "too many notes" was inevitable in the era of the solo flamenco guitar performance on stage, exemplified by Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, and others. Without having to appease singers and dancers, the guitarist was the show, and he made the most of it.
I remember attending performances by Carlos Montoya back in the '60s, and in addition to picados and rasgueados, he would perform extended ligados, hammering on and pulling off, using only his left hand to demonstrate his dexterity while resting his right. He performed extended tremolos as well. His tremolo was dazzling, but like the ligado went on much too long were he accompanying singers or dancers.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 9 2018 14:30:09
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
Sabicas and Mario Escudero
I wonder what this man would have opined about Escudero. I have a hard time pinning him down. Some of his pieces reveal a rare talent for composition, going far beyond the tendency of many of his contemporaries to just string falsetas together. Other solo pieces of his sound like lesson tapes where he just goes through the basic compas with a few traditional variations.
I never saw Escudero in person. The old Austin Guitar Society (not today's Austin Classical Guitar) put on a concert by him in conjunction with the University of Texas arts program. It sold out the 1200-seat Hogg Memorial Auditorium on campus, but I had to be out of town on business. I heard from several people who were very enthusiastic about his performance, a couple of them knowledgeable aficionados.
Escudero's virtuosity in both playing and composition increased--at least on recordings--beyond his best selling two LPs on ABC.
I saw Sabicas a number of times, more often in the informal setting of the after hours juergas at Zambra in New York City than in solo concerts. He sat on the stage, but shared with other artists, singers, dancers, other guitarists. He didn't act like the big star, just another participant. He was warm, friendly and full of encouragement for the others.
Sometimes the party went on until the sun rose on Sunday morning. There was always a small glass of brandy on the floor beside his chair. He didn't drink much.
Accompanying singers or dancers Sabicas seldom exhibited any pyrotechnics, unless explicitly encouraged by the other artist. Accompanying dancers he was especially precise and supportive, perhaps in some respect due to his years of accompanying the great Carmen Amaya.
While Escudero's technique began to decline with age (but not on recordings as Niño Ricardo's did), Sabicas was rock solid nearly until the end.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 9 2018 22:23:25
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I think that's why I found myself gravitated towards some of the "fakemenco" artists that I listed in the original post. 
