RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la Alhambra

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rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2015 14:07:33

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
The interesting (or odd) thing about it in my case is I find the flamenco tremolo (p-iami) easier to control and to maintain a dead-on steady, shimmering melody than with the classical tremolo (p-ami).

I have had the same experience, so wondered about it. I think it might have to do with the extra 'i' providing a sense of better anchoring of the i, m , and a fingers on that one string where they play the tremolo. This sense of better stability may also be enhanced by the apoyando thumb in flamenco tremolo vs. the tirando thumb in classical tremolo. But I think the feeling of better stability or consistency mostly comes from the extra ''i before 'ami' keeping the ami from flying off having too much freedom.

(Didn't see anyone responding back in 2015)

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2017 19:51:53

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

I have had the same experience, so wondered about it. I think it might have to do with the extra 'i' providing a sense of better anchoring of the i, m , and a fingers on that one string where they play the tremolo. This sense of better stability may also be enhanced by the apoyando thumb in flamenco tremolo vs. the tirando thumb in classical tremolo. But I think the feeling of better stability or consistency mostly comes from the extra ''i before 'ami' keeping the ami from flying off having too much freedom.

I had not given it much thought at the time I described my experience in 2015. I think you have nailed it, though, Kitarist. The extra "i" in the flamenco tremolo would provide the stability, anchor, and balance that would enhance a controlled, steady, shimmering melody and, as you so vividly put it, "keep the 'ami' from flying off having too much freedom."

I wonder if other Foro members have had the same experience regarding the flamenco vs. the classical tremolo?

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2017 21:26:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Talk about getting sick and tired of hearing the same old piece done over and over and over and over. Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 18:38:46

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

Well, There's Eduardo Sainz de la Maza's "Campanas del Alba." It seems fairly popular: 8 pages on youtube, 18 performances per page, pro and amateur. I haven't listened to it, but the David Russell version ought to be pretty good.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 18:50:29

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Well, There's Eduardo Sainz de la Maza's "Campanas del Alba." It seems fairly popular: 8 pages on youtube, 18 performances per page, pro and amateur. I haven't listened to it, but the David Russell version ought to be pretty good.

RNJ

That's a beautiful one, yes. There is also a really beautiful tremolo section in a large piece called Nocturne "Reverie" Op. 19 by Giulio Regondi. Have a listen starting at about 2:26 - it goes on for about 2 minutes from there; and then again from 6:20 to the end:

Of course it helps also that Drew Henderson has a really nice, even and expressive tremolo.

@Ricardo: I think it might have to do with classical guitar community's culture focusing on playing existing pieces rather than doing a lot of composing or arranging - at least in comparison to flamencos. But that still does not explain why Regondi's Reverie is not done more (because it is not a stand-alone piece?) - I find it more beautiful; also Campanas del Alba's emerging popularity is only a recent phenomenon. It really used to be that Recuerdos was the only show/tremolo in town.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 19:14:59

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Talk about getting sick and tired of hearing the same old piece done over and over and over and over. Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

For some reason classical guitar doesn't seem to focus on the development of virtuoso technique to the same extent as flamenco guitar. Maybe because for so long the CG repertoire was based on lute music and other less technically developed music from centuries ago. CG's focus is less dramatic and flashy and more subtle than flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 22:04:33

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

TK, maybe slow the piece down and let it breathe to add more emotion to it. You seem to speed up during transitions to and from difficult fingerings. You could focus on those parts. Overall, your performance was good!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 22:07:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

quote:

Talk about getting sick and tired of hearing the same old piece done over and over and over and over. Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

For some reason classical guitar doesn't seem to focus on the development of virtuoso technique to the same extent as flamenco guitar. Maybe because for so long the CG repertoire was based on lute music and other less technically developed music from centuries ago. CG's focus is less dramatic and flashy and more subtle than flamenco.

That makes not much sense to me. I look at Recuerdos or lute music etc as very technically challenging. The point is once they got recuerdos they already HAVE the technique to use as an expressive tool, which they inexplicably fail to do despite the scope for possibility. And I don’t mean composition I mean arrangement, which a huge portion of classical guitar is about. So it’s more like the focus on 3 little pieces are nothing more than exercises or etudes and they leave it there, where as in Flamenco, the idea is to elongate and express a slower melody that would otherwise fade out with a short percussive attack, not to be flashy. The way I see it anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 16:32:51

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I look at Recuerdos or lute music etc as very technically challenging. The point is once they got recuerdos they already HAVE the technique to use as an expressive tool, which they inexplicably fail to do despite the scope for possibility. And I don’t mean composition I mean arrangement, which a huge portion of classical guitar is about. So it’s more like the focus on 3 little pieces are nothing more than exercises or etudes and they leave it there...

I agree that Recuerdos is a technically challenging piece. There are too many obstacles in classical music because composition and performance on classical guitar are carried out by different people. Players and composers have to win awards in their respective areas to be taken seriously and promoted to the public. There must be some opposition to players sharing their own arrangements of existing compositions as a result of this or perhaps there aren’t many CG players whose arrangements are good enough to capture the public’s ear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 22:02:47

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Have you tried playing recuerdos with p-imi tremolo? It sounds very nice when executed properly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2017 2:41:39

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

Have you tried playing recuerdos with p-imi tremolo? It sounds very nice when executed properly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2018 18:45:41

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

Yep. That is exactly who I was thinking of when I posted. Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2018 18:55:24

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

Have you tried playing recuerdos with p-imi tremolo? It sounds very nice when executed properly.

Except she does p-mim

(You can see it most clearly about 2:30 in the video; slow down youtube to 0.5 speed.)

I read that she is using p-mim because she never liked how her "a" sounds in the p-ami tremolo pattern.

p-imi would be awkward for most. However, any combination executed well will sound good.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2018 19:25:10

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to kitarist)

Yes kitarist! You are correct. The funny thing is that frankly p-mim feels weird to me. I can do it but p-imi feels more natural to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2018 19:39:15

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

p-mim feels weird to me. I can do it but p-imi feels more natural to me.

Same for me...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 0:40:47

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

OK, how about the Habanera from Carmen? I did the arrangement after hearing a rather feeble version that was alleged to be by Lucía, but appears actually to be Cañizares.

The tremolo part may of of interest, since it’s a bit different from the usual.

I’ve posted the music in Tabs (although it’s in staff notation).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 3:51:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

OK, how about the Habanera from Carmen? I did the arrangement after hearing a rather feeble version that was alleged to be by Lucía, but appears actually to be Cañizares.

The tremolo part may of of interest, since it’s a bit different from the usual.

I’ve posted the music in Tabs (although it’s in staff notation).

Nice! But I consider you and cañizares Flamenco minded folk.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 8:08:44

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

p-mim feels weird to me. I can do it but p-imi feels more natural to me.

Same for me...

Hmm.. maybe I have it backwards..

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 16:31:18

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

I think you did a very nice job.

Xuefei Yang is my favorite performer of this piece. Maybe she will inspire you to new heights.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2018 16:16:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to kitarist)

I would like to hear a classical player add this to their repertoire:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2018 17:26:41

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

In my opinion, Christopher Parkening's Recuerdos is one of the best interpretation. Very consistent, clean, not too fast, not too slow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2018 17:37:07

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

It's not a piece I listen to much any more, but I really like Alirio Diaz's version. Beautifully warm, but controlled and insistent with no pointless 'artistic' accelerandos/ralls. The melody is paramount and respected. It seems to me that it is only the market that allows/requires continual re-interpretation of something that has been done perfectly already. I guess why not? but in an exhausted marketplace demanding novelty many interpretations are trivial and seek to squeeze blood out of a bloodless stone. For the same reasoning I prefer the cool Paul Tortellier Elgar cello concerto vs the Du Pré sopping wet emotion-fest.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2018 22:58:09

kitarist

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Joined: Dec. 4 2012

Classical Guitar Tremolo Pieces: A R... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Talk about getting sick and tired of hearing the same old piece done over and over and over and over. Other than barrios why haven’t classical guitarists even ARRANGED other beautiful melodies for tremolo tech like the flamenco guys have done. I just don’t get it.

Hi all,

Over the last few months I got curious about finding classical guitar tremolo pieces, after this discussion about way too few tremolo pieces being in regular circulation by concert (or other) guitarists.

I ended up compiling a list of more than 100 pieces, which I thought would be of general interest to forum members. It contains info beyond a name and composer - like number of tremolo measures, time signature, key, alternate tuning if applicable, tremolo pattern if different from (p)ami, as well as bpm estimates for the ones I was able to find video examples of being played, and links to the videos. It is curious how tremolo seems to invite the frequent use of a triple meter as well as of parallel keys.

I discovered many interesting tremolos that way and thought others might enjoy the same exploration. Again, this is a list of tremolo pieces which are not flamenco tremolo (no piami).

Apart from the images below (right-click->View-Image to embiggen), here is a link to the list as a pdf document.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2018 18:58:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Classical Guitar Tremolo Pieces:... (in reply to kitarist)

Wow great resource.... been listening to several right now

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2018 12:54:41

Piwin

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RE: Classical Guitar Tremolo Pieces:... (in reply to kitarist)

Fantastic work kitarist!

Thanks for sharing this with us.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2018 12:30:48

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Classical Guitar Tremolo Pieces:... (in reply to Piwin)

You are very welcome

From the comments on the classical guitar forum, it looks like I should not have included the Carcassi piece; also the Koshkin piece is at 160, not 80, bpm (per 4). I will see what else people find and make the corrections for the second pdf edition.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2018 16:50:51

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

You can add to this list my old time college friend Steve Lin's arrangement of Piazzolla's "Tanti anni primo". Honestly, one of the most gorgeous tremolo pieces I've heard. Probably not his best performance, as this was recorded at an event, but you can see how well it works.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2018 17:30:23

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

You can add to this list my old time college friend Steve Lin's arrangement of Piazzolla's "Tanti anni primo". Honestly, one of the most gorgeous tremolo pieces I've heard. Probably not his best performance, as this was recorded at an event, but you can see how well it works.

That's really beautiful. Do you know how I can get my hands on the sheet music so I can add the piece to the list with all the data (measures, key , time etc etc.) I do for the other pieces? I suppose it can be done from the video, but I'd like to have less work to do :-)

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2018 17:53:49