Conde or Romero pricing

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zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

Conde or Romero pricing

Hi,

I am on the lookout for a quality used negra, within 5k range.
Came across these two ebay listings, and would appreciate any advice on the price, ie whether its too high or not. The listings are:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282799856029

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282799906343

The seller is the same for both. Conde is supposedly in nearly perfect condition, while Romero has a "stabilized" crack (visible on pic. 4)

Thanks in advance!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2018 19:08:52

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

OK so why don't you make an offer for the Conde, your looking for one like it, maybe that's it !

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2018 19:54:29

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

Price is subjective to everyone but I wouldn't pay that for either personally. Gravinas don't demand that kind of re-sale at all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2018 20:02:51

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to tri7/5)

Thanks, being from Gravina at 99 is also my concern. Not clear who actually built that guitar.
As for romero I see a lot of price variation. I was wondering if it being of Brazilian should drive the price up a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2018 20:25:41

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

Brazilian Rosewood is definitely the best on an investment Negra. As for the sound a 'mere' India can sound better depending on the instrument.

As for the price, Romeros tend to sell around €2800 (Blanca) to €3200 (Negra) here in Europe. The American market is quite different in terms of prices but the resale of a Romero is always a great buy because they are just so underrated and sooo well built in the true tradition. Conde is overpriced IMO. You're just buying a label with this guitar.

As to Romero it is often said his 90's era guitars are the best. The Blanca I tried was really great (1997). The Negra I bought in his workshop last year (new from 2017) wasn't that great in the shop (D'Addario strings and not played for several months) but I still bought it because it was a 650 (very unusual for Romero nowadays), with pegs and nice rosette and knowing they all get better as time goes by. I can confirm this one year later.

When you buy a Romero you buy a 'one-man-made' guitar I can assure you.

Edit: beware it has a crack on the back (as I can see from one of the pics) and seems not to have been very well maintained overall (scratch on the head and elsewhere; just my opinion).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2018 13:09:33

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to sartorius)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sartorius

Brazilian Rosewood is definitely the best on an investment Negra. As for the sound a 'mere' India can sound better depending on the instrument.

As for the price, Romeros tend to sell around €2800 (Blanca) to €3200 (Negra) here in Europe. The American market is quite different in terms of prices but the resale of a Romero is always a great buy because they are just so underrated and sooo well built in the true tradition. Conde is overpriced IMO. You're just buying a label with this guitar.

As to Romero it is often said his 90's era guitars are the best. The Blanca I tried was really great (1997). The Negra I bought in his workshop last year (new from 2017) wasn't that great in the shop (D'Addario strings and not played for several months) but I still bought it because it was a 650 (very unusual for Romero nowadays), with pegs and nice rosette and knowing they all get better as time goes by. I can confirm this one year later.

When you buy a Romero you buy a 'one-man-made' guitar I can assure you.

Edit: beware it has a crack on the back (as I can see from one of the pics) and seems not to have been very well maintained overall (scratch on the head and elsewhere; just my opinion).

Many thanks for the comment. Also have a hunch that Conde is overpriced. What should it be worth?
I am thinking of just driving by this guy and trying out his guitars. Since its 4 hours away from me, need to be sure I dont drive in vain, need to come down to the price I am willing to pay if I like any of them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2018 13:34:40

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

I do have a Conde negra for sale if you are interested. You can pm me if you’d Like.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2018 20:23:43

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to tk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk

I do have a Conde negra for sale if you are interested. You can pm me if you’d Like.

Yes, interested, pm’ed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2018 22:47:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

If you live in NY just have Andy make you a guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 6:46:59

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to estebanana)

:) I have yet to try one of his guitars but it means waiting until he is done building. Also I might not like the final product. My thinking is to get something now which I like how it plays/sounds for significant discount from the original price.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 15:11:40

mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

The Conde is over priced, should go for about 2500 to 3500. The Romero looks interesting, I would offer 2500 for it. Jose is selling them new between 2000 - 3000 Euros depending on who you know in Madrid and what kind of relationship they have with Jose. As for the crack, thats Brazilian for you. If you can, go try them out, let your hands and ears do the judging.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 18:31:48

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to mt1007)

Great, thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. Could you clarify though:

"As for the crack, thats Brazilian for you"

Do you mean that Brazillian cracks often?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 19:54:50

mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

Yes, I meant that Brazilian cracks. I've seen many negras with Brazilian, most had cracks. They still sounded great, its just something you have to be okay with. I would not let a crack in the back keep me from buying a guitar with good play-ability and sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 22:14:35

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to mt1007)

agreed. You said it right. Brazilian wood eventually cracks but it means very little to the sound quality or the playability of the instrument.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2018 22:36:23

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

The 3 common problems with Brazilian rosewood are: cracks, CITES limitations, and 2nd choice wood in guitar recently made.
CITES is a serious problem if you travel with your guitar as it is the risk of cracks if you live in a dry place.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 8:48:07

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to mt1007)

quote:

Jose is selling them new between 2000 - 3000 Euros depending on who you know in Madrid and what kind of relationship they have with Jose. As for the crack, thats Brazilian for you. If you can, go try them out, let your hands and ears do the judging.

No way to get one for less than €4000 these days, at least for a Negra (Professional Concert Model I mean. Not his second concert guitar which goes for €2000)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 10:13:24

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

Very few guitar makers of Madrid would sell for less than 4000.
You may spend less if you end up not paying VAT or for those deals reserved to pros.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 10:39:35

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

I don't necessarily agree Brazilian is just always going to crack. I've owned two that were completely fine and have seen more non-cracked classicals than cracked by far. A well seasoned, good piece of Brazilian kept in correct humidity etc. is completely stable. I think part of the issue is because of its "sacred" status certain builders will use inferior pieces just because it's Brazilian. Any wood can crack.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 13:40:04

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

Right cut and proper years of aging are very important, as to keep the guitar within a certain moisture range.
Nontheless, there are woods more likely to crack than others as they have low dampening and tend to be brittle.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 13:57:41

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to Echi)

These are great points. In general, living in tristate area we have really big swings of humidity between summer and winter. In winter it gets to 20% easily and stays there. In summer it is 60-70%.
A few of my acquaintances have Sanchis guitars (not made of Brazilian but made in great humidity in Valencia) and they do crack or have necks bending when exposed to our climate. I also own a Sanchis Lopez Buleria model which I got new and in around 1.5 years it started to buzz immensely on trebles. I was told in the local store that it is due to bent neck, obviously an effect of low humidity.

Perhaps that is another reason that I am looking for a used guitar. Supposedly it would already have reached an equilibrium point, and if it didnt crack or start buzzing - it would seem safe to assume it wont do it later.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 14:50:50

mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to sartorius)

quote:

No way to get one for less than €4000 these days, at least for a Negra (Professional Concert Model I mean. Not his second concert guitar which goes for €2000)

I think Sartorius is correct that if you call Jose Romero directly without having a connect, you're most likely not going to get a primera for less than 4000 Euros. That being said, if you know player's that live in Madrid and they buy from him, they can hook you up with a great deal. Thing is you gotta have that connect. If you're in Madrid, you can just walk into his shop and haggle with him. I know because I've done so, in the end, one of my teachers from Caño Roto got me a great deal for 2000 Euros.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 15:27:36

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

It's because you need a humidifier. You have to take care of your instruments. You change the oil in your car right? No amount of "aging" on a guitar makes it impervious to neglect in humidity and temperature swings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

These are great points. In general, living in tristate area we have really big swings of humidity between summer and winter. In winter it gets to 20% easily and stays there. In summer it is 60-70%.
A few of my acquaintances have Sanchis guitars (not made of Brazilian but made in great humidity in Valencia) and they do crack or have necks bending when exposed to our climate. I also own a Sanchis Lopez Buleria model which I got new and in around 1.5 years it started to buzz immensely on trebles. I was told in the local store that it is due to bent neck, obviously an effect of low humidity.

Perhaps that is another reason that I am looking for a used guitar. Supposedly it would already have reached an equilibrium point, and if it didnt crack or start buzzing - it would seem safe to assume it wont do it later.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 16:23:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

It's because you need a humidifier. You have to take care of your instruments. You change the oil in your car right? No amount of "aging" on a guitar makes it impervious to neglect in humidity and temperature swings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

These are great points. In general, living in tristate area we have really big swings of humidity between summer and winter. In winter it gets to 20% easily and stays there. In summer it is 60-70%.
A few of my acquaintances have Sanchis guitars (not made of Brazilian but made in great humidity in Valencia) and they do crack or have necks bending when exposed to our climate. I also own a Sanchis Lopez Buleria model which I got new and in around 1.5 years it started to buzz immensely on trebles. I was told in the local store that it is due to bent neck, obviously an effect of low humidity.

Perhaps that is another reason that I am looking for a used guitar. Supposedly it would already have reached an equilibrium point, and if it didnt crack or start buzzing - it would seem safe to assume it wont do it later.

A non cracked guitar that is always kept dry won’t crack. It’s humidity change that is the problem. So if you humidify a guitar that didn’t need it... then you have to keep the humidity on it forever or dry it out very very very slowly

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 16:32:43

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

It's because you need a humidifier. You have to take care of your instruments. You change the oil in your car right? No amount of "aging" on a guitar makes it impervious to neglect in humidity and temperature swings.

I failed to mention that I did humidify it - just was stupid enough to keep it close to radiator :))

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2018 16:47:26

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

I've seen a Classical 1969 Brazilian Ramirez that was all cracked on the top but perfect on its sides and back. Eventually I had Romero change the top for its owner keeping the original rosette and bridge. Owner says it sounds better now than used in concerts back in the 70's-80's...

True good Brazilian Rosewood will only be found by reputable builders who have kept it for many years in the best moisture conditions but now there's that CITES issue...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2018 11:18:55

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

The value of the Conde is a very difficult issue. Of course sellers will try and use the Conde name (including Faustino’s name) to bump up the price. I see that the eBay listing for the 1999 Conde has this text: “This guitar is an A-1 Menia (sic) Luna highest quality in the Faustino ( GRAVINA) Conde Line.” Well Faustino Conde died in 1988. The labels on the guitars coming out of the Gravina shop continued to be signed by his widow Julia. She had been doing this since 1985 suggesting that Faustino was no longer involved from some time before his death. Rumours and claims about who was making the guitars range from “several Granada makers”, “a trusted associate of Faustino” and “a well-known factory”. I suspect that it was all of these and possibly more. There were good guitars and really bad guitars. I remember a terrible 1990’s PDL model (supposedly the best). It only made a reasonable sound if played very gently – otherwise it was loud, clattery and just awful.

I wouldn’t buy the 1999 guitar on name alone at any price. You could just be participating in the endless recycling of disappointing guitars that are bought because of the makers’ names. Get in your car and go and try it.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2018 17:50:46

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to RobJe)

Guys thanks for all the feedback so far. I feel I am learning a lot reading your replies and cross comparing to other posts in the foro. Man, I am officially scared to invest in Conde at all. Seems like you never know what is behind the label, unless you made a PhD in the history of this family.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2018 20:27:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

Guys thanks for all the feedback so far. I feel I am learning a lot reading your replies and cross comparing to other posts in the foro. Man, I am officially scared to invest in Conde at all. Seems like you never know what is behind the label, unless you made a PhD in the history of this family.

There has always been tons of negative hype about condes over the years. In real life they remain the best guitars for flamenco since 1960 to present.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2018 11:30:18

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
There has always been tons of negative hype about condes over the years. In real life they remain the best guitars for flamenco since 1960 to present.

Thank you, Ricardo.
I have limited experience with Condes - the ones I tried were in Mariano's shop in Madrid (some 2k and 4k models) and then some high end model in luthier music shop in NYC. From what I could understand the sound is percussive but deep (i.e. non-dry) in the same time. Is this the right way to characterize the Conde sound?

I have played Glenn Canin blanca for the last 5 years or so. Great instrument but recently I feel its sound is very dry, (funny my wife actually pointed this out to me). Maybe it is due to french polish and absence of varnish of any kind? I am a bit puzzled why ultimately J McGuire, Cortes and Chuscales would be so much into that kind of sound.

Also, if we are to speak about modern Conde instruments, is there an established view about whether Felipe's instruments are better than Mariano's (lets forget about entry levels which probably suck anyway). Unfortunately was only able to test Mariano's so far - Felipe didnt answer his door when I dropped by his shop in Madrid.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2018 13:38:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde or Romero pricing (in reply to zendalex)

quote:

I am a bit puzzled why ultimately J McGuire, Cortes and Chuscales would be so much into that kind of sound.

First of all “dry” means absence of water, and in recording studios it means very short or non existent reverb tail, so hard to say what folks mean regarding guitars alone.

Chuscales normally used a conde (equivalent of 90’s era felipe v AF 24 model) since I knew him in the late 90’s, and lamented he was forced to sell his more expensive condes and such for financial reasons. Can’t remember what he used last I played with him in 2011 but not Canin. Pedro and Jason were pushing Canin at the time, very pleased with the double top (plywood) since both were prone to putting their darn right hands through normal thin spruce soundboards when playing hard for annoying dancers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2018 14:17:29