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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamenco died with Paco?
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to mrstwinkle)
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quote:
We all have built-in cognitive biases. We over-evaluate what we have and under-evaluate what we don't have. In our minds, our wives are more beautiful than they really are, our kids are smarter than they really are, etc. Those biases extend to our musical tastes. The music of our teen years or the music of other salient moments in our lives was just so much better than everything else. Those biases serve a purpose and in many ways we should be happy we have them. I can certainly see the benefit of thinking your significant other is more beautiful than she actually is. What I don't understand is when those biases warp into a judgment of everything else. We're no longer saying that our wives are more beautiful. We're saying that everybody else's wife is ugly. An odd turn of events.
If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough. If it's all dying and there's no hope of adding anything of quality to what has already been done, then let's just call the whole thing off. If you don't think you can add anything worthwhile to what Reyes did, then throw out your tools and burn down the workshop. If you don't think you can add anything to what PdL did, then smash that guitar to pieces and use it for firewood. Better yet, bring the wood here, and we can put it all together in the middle of the foro and light it up, turn this place into a huge funeral pyre to grieve the past and contemplate our hopeless future. Let's wallow in our despair and enjoy every last drop of it. If everything is sh*t, then at least let's be honest and drop the whole thing. Some people really need to ask themselves why they're even here if they truly believe it's all sh*t. You've insulted every creative mind here by including what they're doing in the category "sh*t". Ricardo, John, Grisha, sorry to break it to you but your music is all sh*t and cheap. Stephen, Tom, Andy, Brian, Rob, sorry to break it to you but your guitars are all sh*t and cheap. Or maybe we can set up a cut-off age. If you're older than X, you're fine. You're part of the dying but great. If you're younger than X, you're sh*t. What should that age be? 50? That's a nice round number. Let's go with that. Some of you are off the hook (can I hear a collective sigh of relief?). The rest of you, say it together now: "we're sh*t". Olé!
Mi cago en tu leche, toma que,,,,, toma, que toma..........Ole!
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 18 2018 0:35:38
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
When I was a teenager and read Hemingway's "For whom the bell tolls" for the first time, long before I started to learn Spanish, I was very confused at all the occurrences of the phrase "I sh*t in the milk".
I grew up with Spanish as a second language. I spent every summer on the ranch in south Texas. Of the 21 families on the ranch, mine was the only one that spoke English at home. My best buddy was the grandson of the foreman. I spent as much time in his house as I did my grandparents'. His parents made us speak 'correct' Castellano with an 'educated' Mexican accent of course, no Tex-Mex.
We had to know Tex-Mex, since that was about all some of the people spoke. It's not an ignorant nor limited language, it's just a dialect with a long history and consequent expressive power. It developed among the colonists of Nuevo Santander, founded in the 1680s along both sides of the lower Rio Grande. I remain very poor at Tex-Mex.
When I read "For Whom the Bell Tolls" as a teenager my ears burned with embarrassment at Hemingway's clumsy English translations of Spanish idioms. To my ears the idioms simply didn't translate. They were parts of a different way of speaking.
All these years later, if I try to write out a translation of a passage in Spanish, I struggle with idiomatic expressions. For many, if not most, there isn't any way to say it in English with the same meaning, connotation and weight.
It goes in both directions, especially when faced with translating into Spanish the colorful English idioms of the southern and southwestern USA that I grew up with.
"He's all hat and no cattle." "Well, that took the rag off the bush." "Money talks. Bullsh1t walks."
However, even in a redneck bar these days you probably won't hear the openly racist ones that were part of everyday speech in my Texas youth.
In my Maryland high school there were some different racist idioms, and a new dimension for me: class. A day didn't pass without hearing someone say, lightly and teasingly, "Why, you common dog." "Common" was a frequent disparagement.
It was not that there were no class distinctions among white people in Texas. You just didn't express them verbally without risking being called out to defend yourself.
RNJ
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Date May 31 2018 5:18:54
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Guest)
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Congratulations Shroomy!
With Allen Toussaint you have lifted the lid on a treasure chest of New Orleans music: the Neville Brothers, Professor Longhair (Henry Roland Byrd), Doctor John (Mack Rebennack), Fats Domino....
When I was a kid I had a bunch of 78 rpm records of the 1920s jazz bands. Someone threw them away when vinyl LPs came out. I got them before the garbage man did. Wish I still had them.
I taught at LSU for a few years in the early 1970s. We made it down to New Orleans when we could. You could still go to Tipitina's and hear Professor Longhair....the band, without the Professor, would start off the evening, and go on and on. Still no Professor. When you were about ready to get up and stomp out, a couple of the musicians would get up and go get the Professor. They would bring him in, a frail old man leaning on a person on each side of him. They would fiddle around and get him seated at the piano.
Then the Professor would turn around, grin, and proceed to blow the roof right off the joint for the rest of the night. Often they stayed open for an hour or two after the posted closing time. The Professor never broke a sweat.
One of my good friends was from New Orleans. I asked him why, in one of the most musical cities on the planet, the symphony orchestra was no good. He replied that one of his uncles spent $20,000 every year on Mardi Gras (in the early '70s!). Not much money left over for the symphony, art museums and the like.
I don't know what it's like now, but then the only match anywhere for Mardi Gras in New Orleans was Carnaval in Rio de Janeiro.
RNJ
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Date May 31 2018 7:16:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I grew up with Spanish as a second language. I spent every summer on the ranch in south Texas. Of the 21 families on the ranch, mine was the only one that spoke English at home. My best buddy was the grandson of the foreman. I spent as much time in his house as I did my grandparents'. His parents made us speak 'correct' Castellano with an 'educated' Mexican accent of course, no Tex-Mex.
As I have noted before, my family (who were all anglos on my mother's side) has a deep history in Mexico, moving to the States in the 1930s when Mexico nationalized the oil industry and the railroads. I have always been interested in Spanish and have studied it in its various forms when assigned to countries such as Chile, Honduras, and Colombia, not to mention the Mexican connection.
In all cases, however, I can determine whether or not someone is speaking "correct" Spanish by his use (or lack of use) of the subjunctive. In Spanish, one uses the subjunctive probably 50 to 60 percent of the time. In English we hardly use it at all. Someone can be speaking Spanish and to the untrained ear sound "fluent," but if he is not using the subjunctive correctly, he will be understood but he is not speaking correct Spanish.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 31 2018 12:30:08
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk)
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No, I do not think it is normal for a true aficionado to feel that flamenco died with Paco, anymore than it would have been normal to feel that flamenco died with the death of any of the great tocaores and cantaores of the past: Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, and my favorite, Sabicas; not to mention La Nina de los Peines, Fernanda and Bernarda de Utrera, Terremoto, and others. While Paco pushed boundaries and was a technical wizard, he was standing on the shoulders of those who went before.
In my opinion, Paco began to dilute flamenco, at least the flamenco that I have always enjoyed, when he introduced "alien" instruments into his group such as a bass guitar and a harmonica. Nevertheless, flamenco still lives in spite of Paco's death. What I think will eventually kill flamenco in perhaps 20 years will be its absorption by "World Music" to the point where it will be unrecognizable as true flamenco, and it will be performed by a guitarist from Mali.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 31 2018 15:25:48
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What I think will eventually kill flamenco in perhaps 20 years will be its absorption by "World Music" to the point where it will be unrecognizable as true flamenco, and it will be performed by a guitarist from Mali.
Bill
Maybe like with that girl from Mali who has been pushed to stardom in Germany, doing some sort of remotely blues resembling, lame three chords one-trick-pony in ways any musically mediocre teenager with a dud in the house used to in the rich decades. She appears to have been picked by the suits for her hair cut and that "World Music" touch.
To my ears there is truth to all the different aspects mentioned in this thread.
The major ones in my opinion being the ones of limited variable with 12 notes, sensual scarcity and dependent personality.
# Composition
The great plains of harmonically varying 12 notes have been grazed in the unique creative period of ~ 1965-1982 or so. And that in such ideal ways that it equals an extreme challenge to come up with something new yet musically pleasing. Actually, it is close to impossible to create something beyond given discography. There is not much more left than doing a good job with second hand sequences and with as much personality as possible.
# Personality
Decades of anemic creativity, monotony and undemanding trash have left not only measurable marks on generations like lost inability with distinguishing audible tones and shades of colors, but there has also been effects on personality.
First of all through topically restricting didactics aimed at releasing industrial work horses who provide processing skills of specialists without abstraction abilities of coherent thinking (potential rebellion).
A fact much to the regret of enthusiastic and demanding university professors who resigned before the lethargy, lacking creativity and dependency of today´s students. ("Which topic should I chose, Professor?", "You should go out seek and find a question or challenge by yourself." "How do I do that?")
Secondly through Hollywood´s norm across the globe. With youth imitating a small range of movie characters (No matter how unrealistic those may have been.)
[Thus one of the extremely rare criteria that I found positive in that Middle Eastern place, was a still broad and natural range of individual expression and style which appears to have been preserved due to having missed out on decade´s mainstream movies to jointly copy gesture and expression from.]
Educational system and culture product having led to vastly colorless and personality-lacking generations. Common characters who, even if you´d put them into a time machine and sent them back to ungrazed times couldn´t be as expressive and perfectly creative as the remarkable artists and composers of that period.
Those again in childhood might have had a meager toy shelve, no gadgets and just the kids of the block to play with, (and at school more holistic / unspecialized lecture) yet just the more fantasy and inspiration to toy with.
-
There is a series of TV-concerts on German television called "Baloise Session", apparently presenting the shizznizz of these days. Thankfully, at least hand-made stuff. No rap or techno crap.
However, any producer of the seventies would had told these artists to go home, first rehearse a whole lot more and try to come up with something evolving, varying, vivid, unique ...
Compare this "Baloise" thingy with "Rockpalast" of the old days. Man, that used to be excitement, ... a muscial explosion, ... orgasm rocking the hall. With half of the republic, armed with beer and stickies, staying awake until morning hours to watch that event on TV.
At least seen by the commercially popular offer of these days: The charts and scene now are so incredibly anemic and pale; utterly disappointing and really saddening.
And that counts for the whole of popular art and culture, which altogether mounts to severe decline and disaster of human culture development.
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Date Jun. 3 2018 10:39:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
If that Malian guitarist can play Sabicas like Javier Conde or Paco de Lucia like Grisha or if he can accompany baile and cante like Ricardo, then who gives a **** where he's from? The harder part is with cante. There indeed it seems incredibly hard to find the real deal amongst foreigners. But guitar? Anyone can play "true flamenco" no matter where you're from, at least the simple stuff. It's just guitar.
If the guitarist from Mali 20 years from now could do as you state above, I would say more power to him regarding his playing flamenco. But that's not what I wrote in my original comment. Just to be clear, I repeat my comment below.
"What I think will eventually kill flamenco in perhaps 20 years will be its absorption by "World Music" to the point where it will be unrecognizable as true flamenco, and it will be performed by a guitarist from Mali."
Rather than playing flamenco as we understand the genre, my guess is that the Malian guitarist will not be playing flamenco. Rather, he will be playing "World Music" after it has absorbed flamenco, rendering it (flamenco) unrecognizable as a separate genre and thus diluted out of existence.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 3 2018 18:28:58
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