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Is it normal to feel that flamenco died with Paco?
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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 RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk)
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This is the decade of decadence, **** and first world problems.
Of course flamenco and everything else of deepness and quality is dying.
You can look everywhere,,,,,movies, art, music, tv, phone, hobbies, politics, ,,everything is **** and cheap.
Has not much to do with Paco.
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Date Apr. 14 2018 15:24:14
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Morante
Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
You can look everywhere,,,,,movies, art, music, tv, phone, hobbies, politics, ,,everything is **** and cheap.
Was listening just now to Otis Redding and thinking the same; why is all the good music from yesterday? Or am I just too old to appreciate the rubbish which is called music today?
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Date Apr. 15 2018 15:35:11
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Arash)
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We all have built-in cognitive biases. We over-evaluate what we have and under-evaluate what we don't have. In our minds, our wives are more beautiful than they really are, our kids are smarter than they really are, etc. Those biases extend to our musical tastes. The music of our teen years or the music of other salient moments in our lives was just so much better than everything else. Those biases serve a purpose and in many ways we should be happy we have them. I can certainly see the benefit of thinking your significant other is more beautiful than she actually is. What I don't understand is when those biases warp into a judgment of everything else. We're no longer saying that our wives are more beautiful. We're saying that everybody else's wife is ugly. An odd turn of events.
If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough. If it's all dying and there's no hope of adding anything of quality to what has already been done, then let's just call the whole thing off. If you don't think you can add anything worthwhile to what Reyes did, then throw out your tools and burn down the workshop. If you don't think you can add anything to what PdL did, then smash that guitar to pieces and use it for firewood. Better yet, bring the wood here, and we can put it all together in the middle of the foro and light it up, turn this place into a huge funeral pyre to grieve the past and contemplate our hopeless future. Let's wallow in our despair and enjoy every last drop of it. If everything is sh*t, then at least let's be honest and drop the whole thing. Some people really need to ask themselves why they're even here if they truly believe it's all sh*t. You've insulted every creative mind here by including what they're doing in the category "sh*t". Ricardo, John, Grisha, sorry to break it to you but your music is all sh*t and cheap. Stephen, Tom, Andy, Brian, Rob, sorry to break it to you but your guitars are all sh*t and cheap. Or maybe we can set up a cut-off age. If you're older than X, you're fine. You're part of the dying but great. If you're younger than X, you're sh*t. What should that age be? 50? That's a nice round number. Let's go with that. Some of you are off the hook (can I hear a collective sigh of relief?). The rest of you, say it together now: "we're sh*t". Olé!
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Apr. 15 2018 18:00:26
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
We all have built-in cognitive biases. We over-evaluate what we have and under-evaluate what we don't have. In our minds, our wives are more beautiful than they really are, our kids are smarter than they really are, etc. Those biases extend to our musical tastes. The music of our teen years or the music of other salient moments in our lives was just so much better than everything else. Those biases serve a purpose and in many ways we should be happy we have them. I can certainly see the benefit of thinking your significant other is more beautiful than she actually is. What I don't understand is when those biases warp into a judgment of everything else. We're no longer saying that our wives are more beautiful. We're saying that everybody else's wife is ugly. An odd turn of events.
If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough. If it's all dying and there's no hope of adding anything of quality to what has already been done, then let's just call the whole thing off. If you don't think you can add anything worthwhile to what Reyes did, then throw out your tools and burn down the workshop. If you don't think you can add anything to what PdL did, then smash that guitar to pieces and use it for firewood. Better yet, bring the wood here, and we can put it all together in the middle of the foro and light it up, turn this place into a huge funeral pyre to grieve the past and contemplate our hopeless future. Let's wallow in our despair and enjoy every last drop of it. If everything is sh*t, then at least let's be honest and drop the whole thing. Some people really need to ask themselves why they're even here if they truly believe it's all sh*t. You've insulted every creative mind here by including what they're doing in the category "sh*t". Ricardo, John, Grisha, sorry to break it to you but your music is all sh*t and cheap. Stephen, Tom, Andy, Brian, Rob, sorry to break it to you but your guitars are all sh*t and cheap. Or maybe we can set up a cut-off age. If you're older than X, you're fine. You're part of the dying but great. If you're younger than X, you're sh*t. What should that age be? 50? That's a nice round number. Let's go with that. Some of you are off the hook (can I hear a collective sigh of relief?). The rest of you, say it together now: "we're sh*t". Olé!
I have no clue how you come to such conclusions with what I meant with "sh!t".
If there are things which are not "sh!t", then all the things and people and what they're doing which you mentioned 
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Date Apr. 15 2018 19:52:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to etta)
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Paco advanced the tradition of course, guitarwise mainly (both accomp and solo, which indirectly inspired the baile to evolve as well), and only a little bit cante wise (more his brother and some others that pushed the lyric and fast syllable thing). He never went “too far” in terms of specifics as he policed himself so to speak, however, people’s taste line will be drawn wherever it is drawn. I think his admiration for Camaron and that style sort of kept things frozen in terms of forward movement and acceptance of change... I mean if he had continued to develop his work alongside a variety of different style cantaores (like Sanlucar did on Tauromagia for example), things might be different now. But he couldn’t really look past Camaron so, it is what it is.
Now, there are some aficionados who could care less about Camaron NOR Paco’s guitar innovations, so the concept of Paco changing or evolving anything is a non issue. Of course they have to know when they see modern flamenco performance where the inspiration came from, but perhaps they just shrug it off as “what was THAT?”. Then you have many others... I mean MANY others....that used to like Paco in the 70’s, feel Paco stopped playing flamenco and plays jazz fusion or something weird. Like they don’t understand Siroco etc...which I think is simply ignorance. Like looking at the birds today and thinking they could having nothing whatever to do with the magnificant dinosaurs of the past, and certainly not an improvement on design.
I prefer the other opinion that PDL is a non issue rather than pretend to understand PDL’s evolution yet simply don’t like it because they “don’t like jazz”....but saddly that is the vast majority of opinion I hear over and over and over and over.
PDL death is depressing because he was at the vanguard of the inspiration and change. Sort of like BACH, its the end of an era and we have the dates and history clearly marked, and whatever comes next is what it is....that’s how evolution works and to be sad about it or dwell on it, is pointless. In Rito (1972) all the cantaores were lamenting the Golden era of M. Torre, Pavón, Gloria, etc, and how Rumba was a danger....I can’t imagine erasing all of Flamenco history from 1972 to the present....
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Date Apr. 16 2018 4:04:10
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
I don’t think I have the same cognitive biases, I’m fully prepared to say the music of my teenage years(96-03) was terrible and music on the radio continued to be terrible with exceptions very few and far between.
Radio music in the USA has been through at least a couple of cycles in my lifetime. Talking to my son I get the idea there has been at least one more cycle since I stopped listening, maybe more than one.
When I was a teen in the 1950s it was largely crap. The vibrant creative scene of the 1930s-1940s, with the big bands, shows like Louis Armstrong's New York broadcasts, etc. gave way to Tin Pan Alley commercial shlock like Dean Martin's "When the Moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore." The suits had taken control away from the artists, with the results you would expect.
Big bands were expensive, so they got phased out by the record companies, with only a couple of exceptions like Stan Kenton and Les Brown. Kenton was a little too far out to attract a big following, and Brown was too smooth and ironed out to get people excited. Woody Herman's Third Herd was still touring in the 1950s, but when they came to Washington DC the only place they could play was an outdoor pavilion in an amusement park.
The suits could put a few people in a studio to record a song they bought from the production workers in the Brill building, and bribe the DJs to play it. Young people needed a sound track for their lives, and bought what was on offer.
My band got together on Saturday morning to listen to the Top 40. The music was so simple and sappy that we did head arrangements of the top 10, so we could play requests at dances. But what really got the kids out on the floor was when we played stuff from the 1930s. Even traditional jazz from New Orleans got the accomplished dancers out to show their stuff.
The commercial shlock of the 1950s held the airwaves until rock 'n roll came into its own in the second half of the 1960s. Then there was tremendous innovation. The artists were once again the major force.
History repeated itself. By the end of the '70s the suits had regained the upper hand. They began to crank out disco "hits" while the consumer poseurs hit the dance floor.
I have no idea what's going on now on the radio. When I happen to hear "popular" music on the radio, it seldom interests me. The last time I listened regularly was before the new management at the local NPR station took "Blue Monday" off the air, after I moved back to Austin in 2010. Larry Monroe, a local DJ nearly as old as I am, had a blues show that featured stuff from the late '50s-early '60s. Some of it I hadn't heard before. Paul Ray's "Twine Time"--early rock and rhythm & blues--bit the dust soon afterward.
I spent more time in Spain while Franco was still alive than I have since. It's clear that things have changed radically and rapidly. So has commercial flamenco. As recently as the late 1980s the big touring shows still featured traditional performers, music and dance. I even heard Chocolate in San Francisco in the '80s. Though Camaron and Paco were very popular in Spain, their influence hadn't reached the big touring shows.
The last time I saw Tomatito, the only thing that interested me was the dancer, Paloma Fantova. Tomatito's show was obviously influenced by the latter days of Paco de Lucia, but to me it lacked Paco's good taste and musicality.
Traditional flamenco persists, but seems diminished. We will probably take in some of the Sevilla Bienal this year--I'm wondering how it will be. Yesterday I listened to Maria Terremoto on Youtube and was impressed.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 16 2018 21:05:44
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