RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines

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RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

You can put lattice braced tops on the active structure and you still are in Spanish sound territory. Drop that on a static structure and it's something else. And also unlike a cello.

100% agreed. I don’t find my latticed braced guitars sound that much different from my fan braced.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 12:39:14

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

quote:

100% agreed. I don’t find my latticed braced guitars sound that much different from my fan braced.

I have a builder friend who builds lattice braced that sound good but to match them with traditional flamenco pulsation would be a stretch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 12:52:26

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

Somehow the old Kohno bracing could be defined as lattice bracing.
I used to own a nice Pedro Maldonado with lattice bracing and 2 closing bars. Quite similar to the bracing used by Tom Hmphrey.
As Estebana said, the game changer has been the whole concept of rigid box introduced by Smallman (with laminated woods) matched with a ridiculously 0,7 mm thin cedar plate.
The only flamenco I could try with a similar concept was a John Price guitar. Very powerful but it didn’t sound flamenco at all.
A more recent game changer in the market is the double top (earlier made with a nomex core and more recently with balsa strips core). I never tried a double top flamenco guitar though.
I have been told Andres Marvi makes a very strong sounding flamenco guitar with double sides and back. Gerardo plays one but again I’ve never had one in my hands, so I cannot confirm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 13:34:37

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to Echi)

I would be too worried about delamination for a double top, although I guess that’s considered to be a solved problem.

But it would be a shame if the Such-and-such Guitar Quartet was forced to change their ticket to the So-and-so Kazoo Ensemble on arrival just because it was too hot in the cab on the way to the concert hall, lol.

I think some makers use double tops to obtain a marketing edge. My take on it is if you can’t build a killer guitar with solid wood then a double top isn’t going to save you. It might do the opposite. But it’s a completely different story for makers who are on their game, in those cases I don’t think it’s marketing, at all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 14:12:37

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

I would be too worried about delamination for a double top, although I guess that’s considered to be a solved problem.

I think some makers use double tops to obtain a marketing edge. My take on it is if you can’t build a killer guitar with solid wood then a double top isn’t going to save you. It might do the opposite. But it’s a completely different story for makers who are on their game, in those cases I don’t think it’s marketing, at all.

Using a proper epoxy and vacuum system is the secret. I was surprised with how simple the gluing operation is. I wish the rest of the double top construction were as simple. What has impressed me the most about the double tops isn't the volume (although they are loud) but the amazing trebles. If by some chance the top delaminated it would required re-topping, no different than if a solid top were caved in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 14:37:35

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to jshelton5040)

I’ve never posted a link to a video on here so I’m not sure if this will work, but...

Here’s one of Sergei’s double tops. I like this.

https://youtu.be/kF7PG3mY8XM

We’re straying pretty far out of flamenco territory here, but Tomatito does a Satie piece on one his latest recordings, so maybe that can make it OK.

Sergei was my first teacher and remains a dear friend.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 15:43:23

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The ribs on a cello are 1.5 to 1.8 thick -really thin!

1.5 to 1.8 what?

Sorry to be an ignoramus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 15:51:27

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

1.5 to 1.8 what?

mm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 17:11:01

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

I've been turning over the idea of making laminated tops with bamboo stave sections instead of balsa. Bamboo is a better conductor of sound than Spruce and way better than hard balsa. The question is working out weight vs stiffness.

But overall I'm not an advocate of double tops; I'll leave it there lest I be chastised by the laminate makers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 22:57:37

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
But overall I'm not an advocate of double tops; I'll leave it there lest I be chastised by the laminate makers.

I wouldn't dream of chastising anyone for sticking with solid wood or any other new technology like lattice tops. We were dragged screaming to the idea of double tops by one of our customers. I'll stick with nomex laminates at this point since the results are impressive. Right now we're considering a double top / double back (both nomex core) with laminated sides. I have a large plank of Cocobolo that I bought about 35 years ago which would make an excellent candidate for this experiment. If I remember I'll post a photo of the latest double body/double top guitar when it's finished. We're waiting for the finish to harden enough for polishing then it will be on it's way to the customer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2018 23:24:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

See what happens? Someone says double top and the party is over.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 0:52:30

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to estebanana)

Lol, I’ll remember that next time I want to get people to go home.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 2:14:14

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

It’s a must. Like orange finishes, Conde, fine tuning, Barbero plan etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 10:49:21

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to Echi)

Folks,

It happens every time people lose interest in the topic at hand, even on my threads.

It's no fault of the list so much as interest maintained in any one topic for a period of time. This is a chat list, and people chat

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 12:32:48

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

Chat is good...Good for humor and comic relief...and good for airing out ideas, inspired by the original topic. IMHO I like reading what's posted, even if it is on a tangent. Amid it all, I learn a few things.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 13:33:36

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

Chat is good...Good for humor and comic relief...and good for airing out ideas, inspired by the original topic. IMHO I like reading what's posted, even if it is on a tangent. Amid it all, I learn a few things.

+1.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 18:14:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

See what happens? Someone says double top and the party is over.

And I thought this list was about talking about what luthiers were doing. I'm thrilled with the new stuff we're doing...sorry it offends anyone (well not really).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2018 23:15:55

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to jshelton5040)

John, I’m hoping you do have the time to post pictures of your latest double top. I’m truly interested. The concept has been endorsed by so many great makers - maybe not for Flamencos, but it’s all significant and interesting, IMO.

PS - I say maybe not for Flamencos because of the (possibly imagined) challenges presented by golpes. Have you considered making a double top flamenco? I’ve thought about leaving the golpe areas solid, but wonder if doing that isn’t pushing it too far into the territory of diminished returns.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2018 0:15:35

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gilbert Tuning Machines (in reply to RobF)

I posted several videos of Phil Rosheger in the general section. His work came up and even though it's not flamenco it deserves a listen. You can also hear his excellent Ramirez cedar top, which sounds as good as anything I've heard recently.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2018 4:44:56