Rosweood Discoloration

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FERREREZAKI

Posts: 64
Joined: Jul. 10 2013

Rosweood Discoloration

Hi,

I've come across a guitar which rosewoods sides look like a mystery to me.
Areas on both sides of the waist are much darker than the bouts and shoulders.
See pics.

If we were dealing with a refin I don't know how they manage to mess up the coloring like this...on both sides...otherwise finish looks nice and original, no trails of refin.

Sides are "bookmatched" so it kind of make sense that the discoloring is at both sides of the waist if it were the wood itself that is discolored, but I don't think it's the wood.

What do you think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2018 17:17:36

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

My 2 cents is that the wood was originally of the same color of the clear areas of the sides (at the upper and lower bout) and has been stained to look like a conventional rosewood.
Then someone tied to retouch the sides (either with polish or with sandpaper) and ended up removing the stain as the colored layers were just the last ones.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2018 21:16:12

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

My 2 cents is that the wood was originally of the same color of the clear areas of the sides (at the upper and lower bout) and has been stained to look like a conventional rosewood.
Then someone tied to retouch the sides (either with polish or with sandpaper) and ended up removing the stain as the colored layers were just the last ones.

That may be the case but we normally put the color coat on followed by 3 or more coats of clear to allow for level sanding and polishing (others may do it differently of course). If I were to sand the finish enough to remove the color it would be almost a certainty that I would go through the finish and expose bare wood. I'm puzzled by the lack of color on the purfling, it could be that it was masked I suppose. I must confess that this is a conundrum to me. If it had been sanded enough to remove the color then why stop at the waist? Whatever the cause I suspect it will remain a mystery.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2018 23:03:44

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

It's probably not Rosewood, it looks like Mersawa or some other wood related to Philippine mahogany, there are many species.

1. I think the guitar was left on it's back on a shelf and that there was an object right in front of it, a plate, a vase, a stack of books and it shadowed the inner bout. Over many years UV light bleached out the pigment in the stain leaving a dark patch. I've seen this before. It happens with furniture and instruments.

2. It was stained that way on purpose because it came from a factory that also built inexpensive cellos and violins. The wood they use for these instruments is plain and the lacquer is sprayed on them in color coat and then an over coat of more clear. The inner bout areas and bottom of ribs on cellos built in these factories is sprayed darker to emulate the years of wear to the convex surfaces. So the guitar might have gone through the same factory spray schedule as the celli.

I would wager the back is plywood with a rosewood veneer and the sides are a different wood sprayed with a stain to match the back veneer.

I think #1 is most likely, the stain is fugitive and an object occluded the light to the inner bout section for a couple decades in some garage or attic. It's also possible the sides are plywood and were pre stained to match the back, and when assembled the binding was cut right through the stained ply leaving the hard line. This would make sense in order to keep the rest of the guitar and the binding clean from the matching stain. My best guess is just a bad fugitive stain that is light sensitive. If the stain was sprayed topically and not wiped on, it's possible it was not good stain, maybe even formulated
in the factory from cheap thinned paint.

More information on the date and location of manufacture could be helpful, and confirmation of whether or not it's got any plywood panels.

Solution? Leave it the way it is and love it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 0:17:50

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

1. I think the guitar was left on it's back on a shelf and that there was an object right in front of it, a plate, a vase, a stack of books and it shadowed the inner bout. Over many years UV light bleached out the pigment in the stain leaving a dark patch. I've seen this before. It happens with furniture and instruments.

But the waist at both sides???

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 4:18:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

Ethan, see option #2. Done on purpose.

I didn't think both ribs were like that. If both then it really supports a case for it having been part of finish done intentionally.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 6:23:22

FERREREZAKI

Posts: 64
Joined: Jul. 10 2013

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

Thanks for your input everyone.
What about scorch marks from the bending iron, would that make sense?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 8:27:36

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

Scorch marks are not transparent and look different. Any other marks or label notes?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 11:47:15

FERREREZAKI

Posts: 64
Joined: Jul. 10 2013

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

More information on the date and location of manufacture could be helpful, and confirmation of whether or not it's got any plywood panels.

Guitar was manufactured in late 70s/early 80s in Japan.
All solid wood, quite expensive.

I bought it as "in very good condition without any repairs or cracks"
However it turned out to have two repairs and when I saw the sides I suspected a refinished/touched up guitar, therefore I'm now about to return the guitar to the dealer for refund...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 12:14:29

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

quote:

What about scorch marks from the bending iron, would that make sense?

I think any luthier who bends his sides by hand had that thought at first and then immediately rejected it. The waist is the area most likely to get scorched, but they never end up like that.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 12:31:59

pbekkerh

Posts: 34
Joined: Dec. 11 2012

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

It could be natural fading from light directly above, maybe sunlight.
I think if you try putting it in light coming straight from above(from some distance) the shadow will coincide with the dark areas.
If it was stained it is maybe even more susceptible to fading from light.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2018 22:48:02

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to FERREREZAKI)

quote:

Guitar was manufactured in late 70s/early 80s in Japan.
All solid wood, quite expensive.

Can you give the of the factory and the serial numbers on the label and heel? Sometimes Japanese factories put numbers on the inside of the back or the top transverse brace visible under the fingerboard. I can find out exactly when it was made and where.

The serial numbers on Japanese guitars can be confusing because a date of manufacture may be in plain sight, but unless you know that the Emperor year and the Western Common Era year may be used interchangeably in some decades it looks like nonsense number. If the guitar was made in the 70-80 it was during the Showa Era in the Emperors year and would be easy to decipher. I also question the solid wood construction because there is so much flat grain showing on the back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2018 0:05:51

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosweood Discoloration (in reply to pbekkerh)

quote:

It could be natural fading from light directly above, maybe sunlight.
I think if you try putting it in light coming straight from above(from some distance) the shadow will coincide with the dark areas.
If it was stained it is maybe even more susceptible to fading from light.

I think this is reasonable to consider.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2018 0:08:59