Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: Fakemenco, that is good music?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 [3]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Dudnote) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Curious what you guys think about non-hispanics trying to learn cante and how good they need to get before it's no longer faking it? And how long is a piece of string by the way?

I thought this had some good moments - would like to hear him try again once the letras are completely internalised and after a couple of glasses of sake.


Oh lord....well I have no problem with anybody trying to learn to sing flamenco, I perform with non spaniards that sing all the time. But you have like really do it not just "say" the song like this guy did. And if the language is not yours yes you gotta try harder than the average Spaniard. But that's not even what singing is about, the words. I can tell who can sing or not with just "ay ay ay....." and I am certain all aficionados can too.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 20:04:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

Why not just remove the non essential? Flamenco has cante, jaleo, palmas, guitarra and various other even more non essentials.

You can remove everything but cante, and still have flamenco. But, without cante, no other element could survive alone.


You and I could remove it, add maybe some sparingly applied palmas, but if you do this, there goes the tourist industry!

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 22:37:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I propose we cease calling things 'fake menco' and 'fla menco' - It seems like the fla is what really makes it flamenco, so I say we call non flamenco simply Menco and real Menco, Fla-Menco.

That would make it easier, then one could just say simply 'menco' for the faux menco, and Flamenco for the good stuff. And separate out the master level cante -toque baile by calling it Flame'

Than at shows no body has to shout out the embarrassing term Fake menco! They can just yell "Menco!" than only the initiated real afcionados will understand. And they will should back "Menco menco! " And the performer like Benise, for example, will not suffer the stigma of being hailed as dirty fakemenco, and the Benise audience can go to a 'flamenco show' without the pretentious interruptions of Flamenco experts whispering about how lame and unflamenco it is. They will communicate by code saying Menco Menco.

I think this would be courteous of real afcionados to scale back the usage of the term Fake menco as a public service. Talking Fakemenco at shows which the public paid good money for can upset them and ruin their concert experience. It could trigger depression and anger at society, and then that anger would be focused back on real flamenco. We don't need that.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 22:50:12
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

You and I could remove it, add maybe some sparingly applied palmas, but if you do this, there goes the tourist industry!


It is very seldom that I disagree with estebana, but flamenco is visceral art and the tourist industry is the lowest common dominator.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 23:28:34
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Morante) 
Agujetas alluded to it and Morente came right out and said it that the art was advanced by professionals. While admittedly playing for tourism may be the lowest denominator, it is real, and it is part of the Flamenco experience. I think it has been for a really long time.

But I’m probably safer just hanging out in the Luthier’s section, lol.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 23:38:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

It is very seldom that I disagree with estebana, but flamenco is visceral art and the tourist industry is the lowest common dominator


I'm happy you agree with me most of the time too, it validates my crunchy sarcastic personality!

I was meaning it with extreme sarcasm. Sarcasm is difficult to carry over on posts.

Almost everything I've written in this post has some sarcasm in it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 23:43:01
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to kitarist) 
I agree - we should be looking at adjectives.

The most relevant antonyms of fake in flamenco are “real” or “authentic”. Without agreement about how to use these how could you spot the fake? I find myself in some difficulty in this respect as these examples show.

During holy week some years before the death of Parrilla de Jerez we were eating in his little bar when we heard the sound of a procession coming down the street. The costaleros put down their heavy load right outside and a young woman who had been sitting quietly in a corner got up and went out in the street followed by everyone else. She sang. When she finished there was a kind of stunned silence for about a minute. We went back into the bar and the procession moved on. For me authentic without doubt.

In a bar in Nimes there was a sign saying “Flamenco” in the window. When I asked about it the proprietor said they had a wonderful collection of flamenco CDs and invited me to choose one. I found every recording that had been made by Manitas de Plata. Well I really hate this stuff – the fragments of different palos stitched together - the deviations from compass and so on. But something makes me hesitate in saying that it is not authentic.

In Fuente Tójar a tiny town in the province of Córdoba, during the Feria of San Isidro, men in printed cotton skirts and wearing hats covered in flowers gathered to dance a kind of fandango (I think) to the accompaniment for violin and guitar. It didn’t do anything for me – but authentic?

I went to pick up a singer from Linares (then living in Notting Hill Gate with his aged mother) to take him to a rehearsal. In those days (1960s) the houses were in the hands of evil slum landlords. Nobody answered the door but I found it open and went in. It was freezing cold. I heard singing and followed the sound. Through an open door I could see Juan sitting up in bed with his mother and she was running through the letras for something he had been requested to sing. I sat in the corner and listened to the transfer between generations. Authentic flamenco.

For me authenticity is in the moment. Don’t expect to find a definition. It is tacit knowledge, not explicit knowledge. Don’t worry about calling out fakes. New stuff happens and dies out all the time. A small amount of new stuff lasts.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2017 13:02:24
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

I propose we cease calling things 'fake menco' and 'fla menco' - It seems like the fla is what really makes it flamenco, so I say we call non flamenco simply Menco and real Menco, Fla-Menco.

I think we should take it a step further and instead of Menco just drop the last syllable and call it "Me" (pronounced "Meh")....

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2017 16:26:20
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

...and more surprised folks are still arguing about the definition of what is obviously or not "fakemenco".


quote:

I would challenge anyone to produce a definition of real or authentic flamenco. Without agreement on this how you could you spot the fake?


never mind agreement on what flamenco is, we can't even agree on what "fake" means, and whether it's a verb, noun or adjective!


_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2017 20:57:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I kind of like the sound of 'Meh'menco vs. Flamenco.

If it's not flamenco, its 'meh'menco.

Shrug your shoulders and turn your palms up as you say it. Like- "Meh, I had the pastrami, meh, it wasn't good.'

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2017 9:04:37
Page:   <<   <   1 2 [3]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 [3]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

4.882813E-02 secs.