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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14802
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to norumba)
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quote:
I think it would be tough to get everyone to agree on a singular definition, which is why we have the fakemenco question.
Perhaps a verbal definition is tough, but pointing to examples that everyone would agree with is quite easy (Caracol with Melchor, Agujetas with Moraito, terremoto with morao, Camaron with Cepero, etc) And to remind about the topic, it was "fakemenco that is GOOD music"...so a lot of argument about labeling and what is simply not good or acceptable flamenco music is moot in this discussion. Perhaps if the OP would have first made a definition, but I don't even think that was necessary, the question was clear as day to most of us. What ends up happening is out come our lists and some people reading have their sensibilities hurt do to the fact "fakemenco" has a negative connotation.
For example I am guilty of putting Tarrega in the fakemenco basket...that is because I was tying to be cute and point out fakemenco is pretty old concept. Sure I am ok to remove him from the basket but the simple fact is back in that time even, the lines were blurred due the importance of Spain's most popular instrument. For sure an interesting topic of history might be "Tarrega and Flamenco".... just as the Segovia Flamenco connection which has already been an important focus by historians. The very first "flamenco" method book by Rafael Marin I would probably have to stick into the fakemenco basket honestly, and not even the "good" basket  
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Date Dec. 1 2017 20:53:06
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I forgot to add these guys doing some great spanish classical flamenco fusion, great fakemenco IMO...
but is it fakemenco or fakeclasico? Seems pretty real to me, I don't think it's fake anything.
whatever label applies i guess also would apply to Riqueni's Sevilla Suite. That's not "fakemenco", it's "authentic Riqueni"!
quote:
well better than Falla Albeniz junk at least:
Whether it's junk or not I can't comment and don't care, but Falla/Albeniz I always thought owed as much to French classical/Debussy as to anything Spanish, and I understood took as many "national" themes from other regions as Andalucia/flamenco.... I don't have a degree in music or anything like that so it's just what I pick up from here and there....
Vaughan Williams took themes/melodies from English folk songs, harmonised them, used them as material for classical treatment and composition. His music is not "fakefolk" it's classical that borrowed material from the folk songs. But then, I don't suppose anyone would confuse his music as "folk music" 'cos it's obviously orchestral and therefore "classical". But I guess someone from a different country and culture who didn't really know what "English folk music" and "Western European classical music" were supposed to sound like could, in their ignorance confuse Vaughan Williams for folk music.... would that then make it "fakefolk"?
I think this is the problem with your definition of "fakemenco" - it seems to be entirely based on what someone other than the artist mistakes the artists music for, so could be anything depending on the level of ignorance of the person mistaking the other music (western classical music/acoustic guitar music/salsa music/mariachi band) for flamenco.
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Date Dec. 1 2017 22:52:16
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
Well this is hardly surprising since you are quoting the definition for the VERB "to fake" which carries agency with it by default. The adjective's definition, however, is - "fake (adj): not genuine; spurious".
It seems to me that a "fake" van Gogh (for example) would be the second order result of the art forger's original "intent" to create (forge) the fake. Thus "intent" would be inherent in the final, "fake" painting as a fake.
I think it might get a little more dicey when speaking of "fakemenco." Clearly, "intent" would be present if a guitarist knowingly passed off "spanishy" riffs as flamenco. But it could be that someone thinks he is playing flamenco when he clearly is not: not following compas, not playing any known palo, etc. In his ignorance he doesn't realize it is not flamenco, but the element of "intent" is not there, even though it could be called fakemenco.
Bill
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Date Dec. 7 2017 22:01:17
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
and does the noun: "an object, person, or act that is not genuine; [..]" imply intent or not?
Just looking at the above, I think it is clear that intent is not required, though it might be present.
BTW before we get too deep into dictionary definitions, it is worth pointing out that dictionaries are describing language use, not prescribing it. They are also incomplete (a leftover from when they were paper-based and had to worry about physical size and associated costs), and , as Piwin shows, some entries are really badly written or plain wrong out of ignorance of the subject area - like the flamenco definition.
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 8 2017 16:47:00
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