Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof)
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
 RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to soclydeza85)
|
|
|
As Piwin notes above, flamenco is widely unpopular and underappreciated in Spain. It has always had its niche in Andalucia, and though it has been many years since I was last in Spain, I suspect that flamenco as we know it is declining in popularity in Andalucia as well.
I would like to think I am wrong, but I predict that flamenco as we have known it (even in its more "modern" version) will eventually disappear as a separate genre. What will kill it will be the desperate attempt by flamenco musicians and singers to remain "relevant."
To remain "relevant" to the shallow audiences of today and in the future (both in Spain and around the world) will entail being absorbed into so-called "World Music," "Hip Hop," and other genres, to the point where it will be unrecognizable as flamenco. Audience demand will drive the flamenco musicians' attempts at "relevance," an audience whose members follow one another off the cliff like lemmings in their own desperate attempt to keep up with the latest trend.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 26 2017 17:44:57
 |
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to jalalkun)
|
|
|
quote:
Yup...interest in flamenco is declining because it's such a complex form of music that you need to learn first in order to grasp. It's just the same with similarly complex forms of music, just like Ricardo mentioned. For example Turkish Arts Music, Classical Arabic Music, just to name two examples. Highly complex and nearly incomprehensible for the untrained ear. Today's music styles are increasingly simplified so they are more popular to the majority of the listeners. And that's most probably why flamenco will stay a niche.
As interest in flamenco declines in Andalucia, Spain, and around the world, it will increasingly occupy an ever-smaller niche, to the point where it eventually will disappear except for a few individuals who keep it alive, much as groups such as the Folger Consort in Washington, DC keep Medieval and Renaissance music alive by mastering period instruments and playing pieces from those eras. The point about music styles being increasingly simplified so they are more popular to the majority of listeners is a good one. It demonstrates once again the leveling effect of catering to the lowest common denominator.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 27 2017 14:36:20
|
|
Morante
Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
As interest in flamenco declines in Andalucia, Spain, and around the world, it will increasingly occupy an ever-smaller niche
Quite right. When I began my life in Cádiz, there were 2 singers, considered the most authentic remnants of the Cadiz style. I began to ask why nobody in the Ayuntamiento, the Diputacion, the Peñas wanted to record them for posterity. After all, everybody was complaining that nobody had recorded El Mellizo, nor his sons, nor any of the old cantaores.
So using money from my pension, I recorded both Juan Silva and José Millán. (Recording in Spain was cheap then). Both have died, along with flamenco in Cádiz. Everybody thought I was a crazy guiri, but now the recordings have the same historical value as the recordings of Alan Lomax.
This Foro is a foro de guiris, but guiris who have more interest in flamenco and its survival than most Andaluces. If flamenco survives it will be though the action of aficionados, both Spanish y forasteros.
Animo[:)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 27 2017 15:00:40
|
|
soclydeza85
Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to soclydeza85)
|
|
|
quote:
Honestly it's not just flamenco....all good music is becoming fringe. It's because of the internet and the way the world has been going, the evolution of the music industry has affected everyone. Playing music is the only way to make money in the industry, charging high ticket fees, and many of the greats have died. It's simply evolution.
I agree 100%, Ricardo, but anytime I talk about it (with non-musicians) they just tell me I'm getting old and curmudgeonly. I used to work as an audio engineer and the only real way to get any money/business was to go after the oversimplified pop type stuff, the more interesting stuff was a rare treat and usually paid out of pocket by someone who just played/wrote music as a hobby. When I used to do solo gigs, I quickly learned that people won't really take the time to listen to something unless it's in 4/4 and consists of repeating 3 or 4 open chords for 2-3 minutes, which gets boring real quick, I guess it depends where you play though. I could go on and on about how musicianship in popular music has been declining drastically, if it even exists at all in some cases, but I digress. I guess it's always been this way, more or less, but at least there would be great players in the mix here and there.
quote:
Yup...interest in flamenco is declining because it's such a complex form of music that you need to learn first in order to grasp.
Jazz is a complex style which is pretty hard to grasp as a non-musician/non-enthusiast. It's a pretty sought after style for musicians, due to the melodic and chordal mastery required to play it; I'm just surprised that flamenco isn't received the same way by guitarists, being that it requires such technical skill to play even basic stuff. I guess, regardless of the tonal complexity of jazz, you can still tap you foot to it, unlike flamenco (unless you're familiar with it).
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 27 2017 23:00:04
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to soclydeza85)
|
|
|
quote:
Jazz is a complex style which is pretty hard to grasp as a non-musician/non-enthusiast. It's a pretty sought after style for musicians, due to the melodic and chordal mastery required to play it; I'm just surprised that flamenco isn't received the same way by guitarists, being that it requires such technical skill to play even basic stuff. I guess, regardless of the tonal complexity of jazz, you can still tap you foot to it, unlike flamenco (unless you're familiar with it).
Should be no surprise then that the Jazz greats have been saying the same exact thing about jazz music scene lately as you are saying about Flamenco. There is a difference however, at least in USA. Music taught in college, meaning something you can get a degree in, normally offer Classical music (of course) and Jazz to some degree. Flamenco music is absolutely fringe and specific to one instrument, so you can't normally get a "degree" in it. Spain has only recently started to recognize Flamenco as real music worthy of study in University. And of course, we aficionados have lots of opinions about how that goes. I don't foresee any improvement coming in the future. However, classical guitar in my neck of the woods is exploding in schools in terms of popularity, so that is a good sign as Flamenco guitar and Classical guitar are such close cousins.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 27 2017 23:08:59
|
|
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
From the Austin Classical Guitar web page:
Developing guitar as an effective, inspiring, and rigorous course subject in American public schools is the cornerstone of ACG Education. Having assisted with the creation of hundreds of new guitar programs around North America serving tens of thousands of diverse students, we know first-hand that guitar is a uniquely powerful means of bringing the widely documented benefits of fine arts study to young people.
Our national and international services include curriculum development, teacher training, advocacy, and assessment protocols. Locally, our programs provide individual lessons and instruments for low-income students and programs, hundreds of annual student performance opportunities, college scholarships, direct teacher assistance, and daily classes for incarcerated youth at the Gardner Betts Juvenile Justice Center and braille-adapted instruction at Texas for the Blind & Visually Impaired.
Every year Austin Classical Guitar puts on both a classical concert series with the likes of Berta Rojas, Pepe Romero, Jorge Caballero, etc., and at least a couple of flamenco performances. Tomatito sold out the Paramount Theater downtown, Grisha has put on at least one show in the big concert hall downtown, Niño de Pura filled the usual hall for classical concerts, and Jose Luis de la Paz packed the smaller Texas Union Theater, with a percussionist--not just cajon, but a full setup plus cajon. They blew me away with a complexity of syncopation, and tightly controlled but very rapid compas, like I have never heard. Wow.
Even some fantastic baile when Paloma Fantova came with Tomatito.
I feel privileged to live in the midst of such a scene.
But, no cante worth mentioning....and I doubt that there ever will be any here in Austin.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 28 2017 1:16:26
|
|
Cervantes
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to soclydeza85)
|
|
|
For me, the fact that Flamenco is not popular is a deep attraction.
I don't think Flamenco has ever been very popular worldwide.
For my whole life in SoCal the only exposure I got to flamenco was at concert about 35 years ago when Paco Pena happened to be playing in a show that featured some other great guitarists.
It was a big hall and it was not easy to see or hear him play, at the time I thought ok this guy is good but it didn't blow me away or have a big impression on me.
The guitarist that did that day was Joe Pass.
It wasn't until decades later that I stumbled into Flamenco.
I think american jazz is in the same situation when I think about the greats like Miles, Coltrane, Joe Pass, Benson, Errol Garner, etc. You just don't hear that kind of music and creativity today.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 1 2017 14:54:35
|
|
Jw
Posts: 112
Joined: Mar. 27 2011
From: Finland
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to mark indigo)
|
|
|
I don't know how many of you live in the US but what I read here looks like that quite many. It's not of course a problem but what I mean is that you may see Flamenco life maybe by a little bit different way...Not sure but it feels so because of these answers in the forum.
Here in Europe flamenco is doing well and the popularity is increasing every year. Of course is not POP music or anything close to that but if we look at the times when Paco started the times have changed a lot. For example the flamenco players who know sheet music and understand a bit of other music styles are asked more and more to visit and play with other musicians and music styles. There are a lot of combinations with jazz, etho and flamenco players. There are MANY flamenco festivals in almost every European country. Many jazz and ethno festivals include flamenco slots into their programs etc. Every countries have their own flamenco associations and other aficidanos etc. It has developed a LOT! Even if I compare myself. I live in Finland (only 5,5 million people), I have my own house and I make my living ONLY by playing flamenco. Not teaching. I pay my Bank loan by playing flamenco. I visit concert halls, clubs, different kind of events, private parties etc. Of course I play abroad also but in the end this is possible.
The numbers of people who have started flamenco as a hobby have not raised a lot except the dance. Music is obviously the trickiest part to start and learn. Dance is more easy to start I believe. You can only dance without understand the music, and here I mean as a hobby. Not as a professional. Some of them reach the point to became a pro but most of them only do it for fun after their daily work.
I already wrote couple of reasons which I think are the reasons why flamenco can never be really popular but still it's growing and it's doing well.
And one big thing is also money. If flamenco trio travels to US or Japan the cost is quite high. If they fly to Finland, it's a little percent from that price. It's quite natural that small clubs can ask them to play in France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium an so on compared to play in US or Asia. Of course they play all over the world but still how often and how many different players you can hear is question.
Compare how many Country musicians play in Europe??? Many but compared to US?? It's totally different thing.
_____________________________
Jw - Guitarra flamenca - Helsinki
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 3 2017 19:36:29
|
|
chester
Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
|
|
RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack the... (in reply to Jw)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jw
I don't know how many of you live in the US but what I read here looks like that quite many. It's not of course a problem but what I mean is that you may see Flamenco life maybe by a little bit different way...Not sure but it feels so because of these answers in the forum.
Here in Europe flamenco is doing well and the popularity is increasing every year. Of course is not POP music or anything close to that but if we look at the times when Paco started the times have changed a lot. For example the flamenco players who know sheet music and understand a bit of other music styles are asked more and more to visit and play with other musicians and music styles. There are a lot of combinations with jazz, etho and flamenco players. There are MANY flamenco festivals in almost every European country. Many jazz and ethno festivals include flamenco slots into their programs etc. Every countries have their own flamenco associations and other aficidanos etc. It has developed a LOT! Even if I compare myself. I live in Finland (only 5,5 million people), I have my own house and I make my living ONLY by playing flamenco. Not teaching. I pay my Bank loan by playing flamenco. I visit concert halls, clubs, different kind of events, private parties etc. Of course I play abroad also but in the end this is possible.
The numbers of people who have started flamenco as a hobby have not raised a lot except the dance. Music is obviously the trickiest part to start and learn. Dance is more easy to start I believe. You can only dance without understand the music, and here I mean as a hobby. Not as a professional. Some of them reach the point to became a pro but most of them only do it for fun after their daily work.
I already wrote couple of reasons which I think are the reasons why flamenco can never be really popular but still it's growing and it's doing well.
And one big thing is also money. If flamenco trio travels to US or Japan the cost is quite high. If they fly to Finland, it's a little percent from that price. It's quite natural that small clubs can ask them to play in France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium an so on compared to play in US or Asia. Of course they play all over the world but still how often and how many different players you can hear is question.
Compare how many Country musicians play in Europe??? Many but compared to US?? It's totally different thing.
Ole tu! Always great to hear about people succeeding in art! I definitely enjoy the videos you share here Jw.
quote:
I've come to realize that this site is really the only presence of any kind of flamenco community
I also know quite a few people who are pretty involved in making flamenco music. It's just that they're not on internet forums -- that's more of a flamenco-geek thing. ;-)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 6 2017 4:53:13
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
9.411621E-02 secs.
|
Printable Version
