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Fakemenco, that is good music?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Njål Bendixen)
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quote:
They are however great musicians and I am sure that they are really impressive live.
That's like saying "McDonalds, I just don't get them. However they do have some talented chefs and I am sure they produce an impressive cheese burger".
Fakemenco that is good:
Julian Arcas, Tarrega, segovia arrangements of Albeniz and Granados, Falla, Lorca, Ernesto Lecuona, Rodrigo (Aranjuez not Gabriela's boyfriend), Esteban de Sanlucar, Mario Escudero (Impetu and the like), Paco de lucia (trio work mainly and duets with Mclaughlin specifically), Nunez (pasodoble and the like), Strunz and Farah (Americas, Primal Magic, and lets just stop there), Gipsy Kings and friends from France.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 13 2017 12:17:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
"Fakemenco"= the exploitation, superficial borrowing, or usage of the music and/or aesthetic of the art form called "Flamenco" by otherwise competent artists that don't mind perpetuating confusion to the general music listening public, specifically spanish guitar enthusiasts.
I still don't see how Tarrega can be classified as a practitioner of fakemenco, either as it is defined above or as the sub-genre subsequently defined. His may be a form of classical, or Spanish classical, ("light classical"?), but he doesn't seem to me to be trying to "confuse" the public that his is flamenco. I think Mark Indigo hit the nail on the head that any reference to Tarrega playing fakemenco has to originate in the confused mind of the listener, not with any intention of Tarrega's.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 13 2017 17:48:03
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
"Fakemenco"= the exploitation, superficial borrowing, or usage of the music and/or aesthetic of the art form called "Flamenco" by otherwise competent artists that don't mind perpetuating confusion to the general music listening public, specifically spanish guitar enthusiasts.
I still don't see how Tarrega can be classified as a practitioner of fakemenco, either as it is defined above or as the sub-genre subsequently defined. His may be a form of classical, or Spanish classical, ("light classical"?), but he doesn't seem to me to be trying to "confuse" the public that his is flamenco. I think Mark Indigo hit the nail on the head that any reference to Tarrega playing fakemenco has to originate in the confused mind of the listener, not with any intention of Tarrega's.
Bill
So long as you Tarrega lovers can accept Arcas and Turina etc as fakemencos, I will respectfully remove him from the "good quality fakemenco" list.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 13 2017 18:13:05
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norumba
Posts: 30
Joined: May 20 2015
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to Njål Bendixen)
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what a fascinating and entertaining thread :)
I'll modify Kitarist's modification a little further and break up the categories for clarity:
quote:
so 1. if they have to say they are not flamenco but others still think they are flamenco they are fakemenco, and
2. if they don't say they are not flamenco knowing people wrongly take them as flamenco they are fakemenco and
3. if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco....
even with that modification though, im still not sure I would classify #1 as fakemenco. fake to me implies a degree of intentional deceit, and if youre upfront that youre not flamenco, then there really isnt that deceitful element unless industry or media classifies you that way. So i dont think #1 counts as fakemenco .Maybe call it wrongmenco or mislabeledmenco 
#2 is pretty clear, but #3 is a bit of a can of worms, because how do you define what isnt? See the two questions i posit below.
its all subjective at any rate. Everyone has their own definition of it which is interesting to see, and i dont think theres any right or wrong. Even as I think this through to write this post, it gets fuzzy in my own head, lol.
I would agree with Piwin on the PdL classification to a large extent... Ricardo breaks it down differently than i do, as i wouldnt classify all fusion attempts as fakemenco -- but then again a lot of them are. Depends on how theyre presented.
I get that Ottmar can play a proper bulerias but a) his output completely lacks any kind of conviction and heart and b) he did pass all of his s*** off as flamenco, not just the occasional bulerias or tidbit. for those two reasons, id put him squarely in the fakemenco camp, for me.
That raises the philosophical question: if you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit , are you fakemenco? Conversely, if you follow the spirit of the law but not the letter, are you fakemenco? do the three theorems above override these two questions?
personally i think all rumba is fakemenco, but technically thats probably not true, otoh some historians/academics/scholars may agree. But i get that my disdain for rumba is an entirely subjective aesthetic.
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Date Dec. 1 2017 4:53:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to norumba)
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quote:
it's all subjective at any rate. Everyone has their own definition of it which is interesting to see, and i dont think there's any right or wrong.
For what it's worth (the cost of a doughnut and a cup of coffee?), I don't agree with the above-cited quote. If it's "all subjective" and "there's no right or wrong", then musical nihilism reigns. The definition of "flamenco" and therefore "fakemenco" is not just what anyone wants it to be.
There are elements that define flamenco--palos, compas, styles of playing--that set it apart from other genres. That someone might want to suggest that Rodrigo and Gabriela (to use one example) define flamenco does not make it so.
This sort of madness began with "Post-Modern" theory in literature where the text was whatever one subjectively interpreted it to be. It continued with the idea that Western ideas and theories of science were just "Western Constructs," no more valid than the Hottentots' world view in the Kalahari Desert. Followed to its logical extreme, one might as well call Mongolian Throat Singing flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 1 2017 15:56:37
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (in reply to norumba)
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Back in the 80's when he broke I found myself onstage with him. We were both part of the audience at a flamenco show. The club owner of course asked the famous guitarist to play, and he obliged. The guitarist who played for the show was an excellent flamenco player, and I was also invited to back up Ottmar. We played his hits, which required me to play two chords in rhythm. At some point the dancers got up and started doing palmas por bulerias. I'd say his playing would likely not be considered "proper" by most aficionados. This WAS a long time ago though, so who knows. I'm no fakemenco snob-I love "proper" rumba and have been guilty of playing it any time people were willing to pay me. Played my share of fakemenco too for sure. Paid a lot of bills....
quote:
ORIGINAL: norumba
I get that Ottmar can play a proper bulerias but a) his output completely lacks any kind of conviction and heart and b) he did pass all of his s*** off as flamenco, not just the occasional bulerias or tidbit. for those two reasons, id put him squarely in the fakemenco camp, for me.
That raises the philosophical question: if you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit , are you fakemenco? Conversely, if you follow the spirit of the law but not the letter, are you fakemenco? do the three theorems above override these two questions?
personally i think all rumba is fakemenco, but technically thats probably not true, otoh some historians/academics/scholars may agree. But i get that my disdain for rumba is an entirely subjective aesthetic.
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Date Dec. 1 2017 16:37:54
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), pretty much all latin/hispanic music (people think salsa, samba, mariachi etc = flamenco 