Beta blockers and other performance enhancing drugs

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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

Beta blockers and other performance ...

I'm curious if anyone has tried beta blockers or anything besides alcohol for performance anxiety?
Recently had a bad experience where we got to the place to perform late and I had no time to have my customary 3-4 drinks and I was a mess. My hands were completely shaky(and it was cold out to top it). Compas was fine but any kind of intricate falseta(arpeggios/picados) where I needed fine motor skill I was a disaster. I ended up giving up and playing the chords of the more intricate falsetas.
Call me a horrible person but I don't mind popping a pill of some sort to be able to perform, at the rate I perform there's really no risk of chemical dependence.
Anyone try anything like this?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 21:04:52

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

The anxiety itself isn't the problem. You reacting to it is what creates the problem.

Taking pills or being mentally dependant on alcohol sounds like an unnecessary extra problem.

Learn to acknowledge the anxiety, accept it and move on with your show.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 21:56:08

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

When I did some theatre shows ("only" a short tangos & alegria) with the dance school back in June, I made damn shore I got there super early. Enough time to warm up, eat, sleep, stretch, shower, rehearse, rest, breath, rehearse again with the cajon player, breath, rest etc etc.

That still didn't stop me muffing a bit the finishing alzapua the first night. So that got changed to rasgueado for nights 2 & 3.

I hate running late for planes & concerts - anything else is fair game

. Get there early Dude!!

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tú ahora no me conoces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 22:05:22

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Ah c’mon Rui, what fun is that??

At the rate I perform(4 times a year or so) it’s not enough to practice mind over matter. And my understanding is beta blockers are basically harmless and used by many classical musicians. I’m not looking to pop Xanax or anything.

quote:

hate running late for planes & concerts - anything else is fair game . Get there early Dude!

I was early! The dancer I had to give a ride to made us way late!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 22:15:44

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

How long does it take for those things to kick in?
I mean if you're late and you pop one right before the performance start, might be weird if it kicks in right in the middle? Don't want to start playing reggae mid bulerias lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 22:29:30

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with having a few drinks before playing.

What I am saying is that you're kinda hardwiring your performance to be dependant on other things.

If you think you need to drink or take pills, then you will need them.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 22:31:52

eccullen

Posts: 97
Joined: Aug. 14 2007

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

re propranolol, beta blockers:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/can-a-drug-make-you-a-better-speaker/535845/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 23:40:46

rombsix

Posts: 7806
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Try doing some exposure therapy (cognitive behavioral therapy) to overcome your performance anxiety. That may be achieved in 10 to 12 sessions (one session per week) through something called "exposure and response prevention". Read about that...

If you cannot do that or don't want to do that, you can consider some propranolol.

Performance anxiety (off-label use): Oral: Immediate-release formulations: 40 mg to be taken 60 to 90 minutes prior to anxiety-provoking event (Hartley 1983). Additional data may be necessary to further define the role of propranolol in this condition.

All of the above does not constitute medical advice, and you need to see your primary care physician for formal recommendations.

(in other words, don't you dare sue me if you die because of this medication)

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2017 23:40:44

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Ramzi for the win! Hahaha jk.....kind of lol

It's weird because I get nervous but I do totally fine in public speaking situations and it's not enough anxiety for me to forget choreography or lose compas, it's just enough to make my fine motor skills start to suck. I have falseta anxiety, not performance anxiety

.
I'll take a look at the exposure therapy but likely I'll end up with some sort of substance to help me out. I do notice when I do back to back things the second and third performance is WAY easier for me, it's like ring rust I suppose.

Interesting article eccullen, I've read others that were very similar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 0:22:49

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

The way you describe it doesn't make it sound all that debilitating.
Maybe simple things like having a quick "ritual" or "pep talk" or whatever to get you in the right mindset before getting up on stage?
One thing that helps me when I feel a bit overwhelmed is to switch to the traditional position. I usually play cross-legged, but if I'm stressed I'll plant both feet into the ground hard and for some reason that helps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 0:42:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

The way you describe it doesn't make it sound all that debilitating.
Maybe simple things like having a quick "ritual" or "pep talk" or whatever to get you in the right mindset before getting up on stage?
One thing that helps me when I feel a bit overwhelmed is to switch to the traditional position. I usually play cross-legged, but if I'm stressed I'll plant both feet into the ground hard and for some reason that helps.

You know you may be right. Being late makes me a nervous wreck so not only did I have no drinks for the first time ever but I was late for the first time ever and the people were starring at me while I set up my PA.
I actually only play traditional. Can't do cross leg and always forget to use supports even though I own them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 1:03:25

laughingstock

Posts: 35
Joined: Jun. 30 2016
From: Texas

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

If there is one aspect I hate about guitar playing more than maintaining my precious damn nails it's performing. I take about four xanax (2mg total) with some wine otherwise I come out at break-neck speed and the dancers give me ugly stares and my fingers can't keep up either. I actually carry the bottle in my guitar case because I don't take them for any other reason. I'm like Lenny- my falsetas go to sh** otherwise. Buzzing on alcohol doesn't help me though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 4:55:24

rombsix

Posts: 7806
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to laughingstock)

quote:

I take about four xanax (2mg total) with some wine

Be very careful with that... This can be quite dangerous to your health.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 5:44:19

laughingstock

Posts: 35
Joined: Jun. 30 2016
From: Texas

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

You're absolutely right and I am NOT making any recommendations. This has worked for me the last three outings-big stage, small club and more intimate setting which to me was the most nerve-wracking. I don't get a euphoric feeling from the xanax and that's not my intent. It simply keeps me from getting severe jitters before playing but Ramzi is right- consult a professional. I did and this is what was prescribed (sans wine of course).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 6:27:48

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

I did some research on this, and helped a lot of people.
Maybe it is useful for you too.
Good luck

https://youtu.be/YtmvVnEhtbo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 6:28:23

payaso

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Kato Havas’ 'Stagefright’ (aimed primarily at violinists) and Barry Green and W. Timothy Galwey’s ‘Inner Game of Music’ are both helpful books. An orchestral violinist I know always uses propranolol before taking solos and she says most of her colleagues have propranolol in their cases.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 10:28:57

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I'm curious if anyone has tried beta blockers

I used to take a light dose (20mg if I remember correctly) but only when I worked with dancers. Dancers are always nervous and it's infectious. Never once took it when playing solo.

Now I take big doses daily to stay alive...getting old is not for pussies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 14:22:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Pro prano LOL

Seriously, don't rely on anything but yourself for this. I like to have a drink or shot but it doesn't really change anything, nothing like being drunk AND nervous. Practice with a metronome religiously, all your falsetas everyday so you become like a machine...you want to go on stage only with expressive feelings don't think about anthing just let your well rehearsed body take over at that moment. It's 100% mental. If you falseta is not prepared, strumming chords is fine. Notice how everybody reverts to strumming chords when they get neverous...because you have rehearsed that more, it's not really because it is "easier" IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 14:26:48

Gabewolf

Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

My music teacher at school always says to practice unbelievably slow. He says slow to the point where the composer of the song you're working on wouldn't be able to recognize the piece. This may be a bit extreme but I do think park of the nervousness about playing live comes from an adrenaline rush, so one may tend to speed things up live and get sloppy. But if you practice slow, the player will increase their speed to a normal tempo when the adrenaline kicks in. I performed some solea and bulerias at some open mic nights this past summer and I noticed practicing them before the performance, solea at 50 bpm and bulerias at 100 bpm really helped calm my nerves a bit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 15:29:30

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

It can be crippling. For me, the only thing that eliminates it is experience. The first time I played solo in a club my leg starting shaking. I don't know how I made it through the tune. A few years later and dozens of solo gigs I did a gig in a famous hall in front of 1500 folks. I was pretty nervous then too, but I had moved the needle a fair bit. I played close to the limit of my ability. The idea today of doing that gig would be scary, but if I had done dozens of similar gigs recently, no big deal. Frequency, and command of the material cures all for most people. No need for drugs or drink. My first teacher also said you have to have variations ready in case your hands aren't ready to play your most difficult falsetas at a given moment.
Get yourself a weekly solo gig in a restaurant. Invite a dancer to come down now and then. You get paid and hopefully a nice dinner in exchange for practicing. You'll get performance experience. It won't be the same as a theater gig, but you will move the needle. Ricardo is right-it's all in the mind.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 15:57:55

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Can't do cross leg

Porque tienes mas huevos que el caballo del Espartero!

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 16:03:11

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

"Get yourself a weekly solo gig in a restaurant. Invite a dancer to come down now and then. You get paid and hopefully a nice dinner in exchange for practicing. You'll get performance experience. It won't be the same as a theater gig, but you will move the needle. Ricardo is right-it's all in the mind."

All great advice for sure. I typically gig several times a month at local restaurants and other venues with and without dancers. I always have a touch of nerves and I have used beta-blockers as well. They do work however as Ricardo mentioned, if you are not prepared nothing will work.

There is a trick that I saw on line a number of years ago that seems to work for me. I sit down and practice two ways. One like I'm learning new material, the second like I'm performing. During my "performance" practice I keep playing even if I make a mistake. I do not stop, as you cannot stop during a performance. You have to remain calm and keep playing. Most of the audience will not even hear your mistake so once you realize that, the fear starts to disappear. I go back later and work on the problem areas.

I also learned a mind trick that takes practice but dovetails with the above. As you are sitting there before you start playing, picture in your minds eye an audience in front of you. When you feel your blood pressure rising, take several deep breaths pick a spot on your instrument to focus on and think to yourself "play beautifully". Focus on this thought only, don't think about anything else! Start with the same piece each time so you are comfortable with the piece. Begin playing and don't stop if you make a mistake. Simply think "play beautifully" when you feel your self getting nervous. It takes practice and commitment but It works for me.

Also remember that many in the audience wish they could be you, up there performing. We are doing something not very many can do. Change the mindset to giving back rather than receiving.

Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 17:14:53

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

I did some research on this, and helped a lot of people.
Maybe it is useful for you too.
Good luck

https://youtu.be/YtmvVnEhtbo

Simple but sound advice, indeed, gerundino63. Thank you for sharing this. I shall try to practice, accordingly. Ultimately, I suppose that the suggested goal is to learn how to isolate oneself from the outer threat (the audience) and focus on the inner source of pleasure, the intimate enjoyment of playing.

The problem is that many among us subordinate the gratifying experience of playing to the consequences of playing, the reaction of the audience. It would be quite helpful to separate the two, as the preoccupation for the latter always compromises the beauty of the former.

However, there is one further step to the process. It is that enviable trait of those who perform even better in front of audiences. They seem to embrace the excitement that inhibits others (me) and, instead, naturally convert that energy to their advantage, feeling as disinhibited as one would after a few drinks.

It is not only a matter of training or confidence, but also perhaps one of sheer vanity and seductive coquetry, which makes one play flirtatiously with the audience, expecting music to arouse the same emotions in the audience that it stirs in the musician.

In my specific case, the music I play is my own secret diary that I timidly keep for myself and most hesitantly share. It is not a means of communication, but one of most contemplative meditation. I am not sure it is “stage fright” that prevents me from performing in public; I am simply reserved about something I hold to be so intimate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 17:25:10

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Notice how everybody reverts to strumming chords when they get neverous...because you have rehearsed that more, it's not really because it is "easier" IMO.

I'm not sure if I can get on board with this. When your hands are shaking small intricate finger movements are harder to do than big strumming movements.

quote:

Porque tienes mas huevos que el caballo del Espartero!

It's hard to be me my friend.

A regular gig would indeed help a lot, my only issue is I don't really know any "pieces" of music and I'm not sure people want to hear choreographed flamenco without the singer and dancer. Maybe I could string some falsetas together and wing it....Maybe if I do it monthly I could get one of the student dancers/singers to drive up from OC. Why do only know dancers in Orange County???

quote:

I am not sure it is “stage fright” that prevents me from performing in public; I am simply reserved about something I hold to be so intimate.

I get that, it is intement, and it puts something that's intement to you out in a public space open to criticism. Before this incident I thrived on performing, I generally did really well(for me) and enjoyed the endorphin rush of it. This incident really kind of shook me up since I'd not dealt with physical manifestations of anxiety like that before.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 19:13:45

rombsix

Posts: 7806
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to laughingstock)

quote:

I did and this is what was prescribed (sans wine of course).

Yes, the combination of a benzodiazepine with alcohol is VERY dangerous. I would avoid that.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 19:48:15

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Yes, the combination of a benzodiazepine with alcohol is VERY dangerous. I would avoid that.

I had a friend who took one xanax bar and had 3 beers. Mid stride he passed out and fell with only his face catching his fall, busted his face really bad and got a serious concussion. The first week or so he was slow and drooling on himself and even after that he never got back to himself 100%. Be careful with that stuff.
On the other hand I knew people who did it all the time and never had a problem, you never know though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 22:16:47

AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Beta blockers appeared twice in my life
Once - about 20 years ago - to get through a honors recital at college - kindly passed on from an opera singer
And recently prescribed as a preventative to a migraine condition - usually appear after long dance classes and Rehersals :-)
To be honest when performing on them things just kinda 'felt' dull - no edge - mechanical - kinda lifeless feeling and undynamic - and still made mistakes :-)
I found an alternative to the migraines and the beta blockers lie dormant in my bathroom draw ready to be thrown out
Personally I wouldn't advise these as performance enhancing - some edge and anxiety makes a better performance - all in balance I guess -
To lighten the anxiety these days I try to be as prepared as possible - arrive to gig/theatre early - hang..chat .. Reach for the humour remedy - Play lightly through material till showtime ... And go easy on myself as I wipe the egg of my face

Just my experience - hope that helps ..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 23:23:39

julianev

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 13 2015

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

I did a lunchtime gig this summer in the gardens of an stately home and once I'd set up my gear, I looked up and saw lots of reserved people sitting on the grass serenely having picnics. It was the first time I've started a gig and realised there is no chance the audience is going to be drunk shortly so it didn't matter if I screwed up. I had a major attack of nerves, but by some major fluke I'd had the foresight to pack a small bottle of rioja in my gig bag. It was a bit tricky pouring the wine behind my guitar case

but by the third tune I was back in the groove and it ended up fine. Now I never leave home without a bottle of wine as back-up. Knowing the safety net exists helps take the edge off, and there have been a couple of gigs recently where I've ended up playing the whole thing thinking I'll just finish the next tune then I'll pop the cork...

The other thing I've found helps is to treat it a bit like DJing, i.e. by thinking I'm there to help the audience rather than worrying about what they think about me. I try to read the room and play in a way which might hopefully console someone having a ****ty time or else bring a smile to someone's face. If it is upbeat then my standard tactic is to target any kids first and get them dancing, then hussle in the parents, then you're up and running ;-). Remember, no-one is there to see you fail: they just want to have a good time or else to hear something which might help ease their troubles.

The thing that still freaks me out big time is if someone waves a bloody smartphone video recorder in my face. Then a voice in my head starts saying "you're about to become that person in the youtube video of the worst guitar gig trainwrecks of all time". Haven't remotely worked out how to deal with that one yet - I truly hate it!

PS thanks gerundino63 I found your video really helpful, will definitely give it a go

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2017 23:29:22

Lorenzo714

Posts: 76
Joined: Oct. 8 2013

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

Wow I thought I was the only one who needed a drink to play good

I not a drinker but I discovered it worked well for me several years ago when I had a Flamenco Festival live with several hundred people and a big group of dancers. I had plenty of reason to be nervous and I was...my hands didn't work. .....but it was July and very hot. But when I went to get something to drink.. the only thing available was beer, so I drank this huge size beer. About a half hour later we performed and all of the sudden I played great and my hands worked

Great Sevillanas, Tangos, Soleares etc came out!!!

So after that, every time I was on my way to any gig I would try and pick a drink up to help my playing.....my son used to make fun of me because it was the only time I would drink.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2017 1:26:59

IraqiOud

Posts: 41
Joined: Apr. 3 2016
From: Iraq, Living in North Carolina

RE: Beta blockers and other performa... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Ramzi for the win! Hahaha jk.....kind of lol

It's weird because I get nervous but I do totally fine in public speaking situations and it's not enough anxiety for me to forget choreography or lose compas, it's just enough to make my fine motor skills start to suck. I have falseta anxiety, not performance anxiety .

Maybe because you are good enough at public speaking which makes you fine about it subconsciously because you know you will do well in stressful situations.

From what you are describing it sounds like you need to practice what you describe as "fine motor skills" a bit more often and focus on mastering them in a comfortable environment in order to prepare yourself for the more stressful and anxiety-inducing environment. Olympic weightlifters always lift more weight during training sessions than during the Olympics. Push yourself beyond your comfort zone off-stage just so you build confidence and be more relaxed on-stage.

Now if you find what I said above to be boring and cliche, then Nadolol might be an option because besides decreasing heart rate, it specifically helps with reducing tremors which helps a lot when playing any string instrument and particularly with what you are describing as fine motor skills. However, it's absolutely contraindicated for people with asthma, slow heart rate or certain types of heart diseases.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2017 5:45:00