RE: 2s in bulerias examples

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zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

I have some paragraphs on my other computer in Morón I could post...

We could morph into a discussion of "bulerías crossover", a phenomenon I've observed at large noisy fiestas where, when there's no guitar to reinforce the character of the palo, bulerías becomes tangos, with no break in the rhythm...and no one seems to notice! Now *that's* where twos become crucial...

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 3:22:57

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

suggestions for questions are welcome from all forum members.

Ask him about "Driving over Lemons", or is it "Parrot in the Pepper Tree" by Crhis Stewart, I believe he and his school appear in this book.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 8:40:20

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

You're not THE Simon, are you?

I thought I was the only Simon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 8:41:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

We could morph into a discussion of "bulerías crossover",

Oh No!

This is about all my head can take at the moment!

I would definitely like to know more about it though, 'cos I've heard the same phenomenon.
I think I mentioned it a few months ago when I said I had been listening to something from Ondajerez and couldn't work out if it was a Bulerias or Tangos.
It was like an "auditory illusion" like the visual illusion whereby a "wire" box appears to jump back and forth.

But later, Estela...por favor, later..
Let's try at least to get some kind of conclusion to this 2's thing first!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 8:54:24

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

I think it's an amazing piece of guitar work, but I think I see what Estela is saying.
Todd is thinking very strongly in 12's and it works out in 12's perfectly.
But I have to agree, that you can't tap 2's to it.

Though I enjoyed it, I must admit I'm begining to see it too. He's playing too fast and loose with timing, consistently, for it to sit with a '2' pulse.

Probably not the best example of his buleria really, I have a copy of an earlier version of one of the falsetas in that, and its MUCH 'safer' in terms of the compas.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 9:15:29

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

Probably not the best example of his buleria really, I have a copy of an earlier version of one of the falsetas in that, and its MUCH 'safer' in terms of the compas.

It's certainly possible to stay in compás without the two beat, but it takes tremendous concentration, discipline and the ability to sense the lengthy pulse that takes place from the beginning of one 12, to the next, as well as the inherent unevenness of switching back and forth from twos to threes. You're never really in control and the structure tends to shake and shudder...in a guitar solo this is a minor annoyance, but with singers and dancers it's an impossibility. Powerful second and third parties can "keep you in compás", but it's very limiting to be dependent on others for rhythmic guidance.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 10:44:02

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Hi Zata,

quote:

I still don't understand about the stopping problem...you mean like when you go piss? You'd stop on the 4th or 10th beat, never five. I don't think anyone ever had a problem stopping (?).

No, I might not have explained '5' very well, you have to go back to earlier posts.
By 5, I'm refering to compas beat 5.

12(1) 1 2 3(2) 4 5 6(3) 7 8(4) 9 10(5) = Remate

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 11:53:06

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

By 5, I'm refering to compas beat 5.

12(1) 1 2 3(2) 4 5 6(3) 7 8(4) 9 10(5) = Remate

I see how you're counting, but then what do you call it when the remate comes on natural beat 4? Two and one third?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 12:02:02

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to gerundino63)

Hi Peter,

Yes, this is 'al golpe' mentioned earlier in posts. PdL used this a lot on earlier videos when you hear his foot tap away.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 12:03:36

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 12:30:45

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)

quote:

quote:

Yes, this is 'al golpe' mentioned earlier in posts. PdL used this a lot on earlier videos when you hear his foot tap away.

Exactly, my point. This (12) - 1 - 2 - (3) - 4 - 5 that Paco pats his foot to highlights the threes and sixes in the compas.

First of all, we must be careful with the term "bulerías al golpe" which is the cante form "soleá por bulería". Only around Sevilla is the term sometimes (rarely) understood to refer to this old-style bulería compás which Paco still pats with his foot, no matter how modern his falsetas become...and there's no conflict of course.

In this format, beats 6 (12) and 3 (9) are never accented, which is why the old desplantes (which Mariquita may still do) began on 6 (12), because it marked a radical and unmistakable change. As the longer phrase became popular and beat twelve dethroned beat one, desplantes were shifted to begin on beat one, again, to mark a clear difference. This is not speculation, the shift took place in my lifetime and I watched dance teachers trying to explain the "new" desplantes to confused students.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 13:06:36

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

Hi Simon

Just downloading it. Emilio is coming round later so if we have time before tonight's soundcheck we'll listen to it and get back to you with some feedback. Emilio's playing tonight at the Centro de Interpretación and its also Harold's birthday so we shall have a big long celebration fiesta tonight.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 15:01:50

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Wow! This has got to be the best thread ever on this forum. Try the following with any Bulerias. You might want to practice a bit first, because like Ron said it´s like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time. I think you´ll soon see what Estela is talking about.

C=Clap F=Foot (Disregard the '-' for some reason you can't put in a blank space.)

12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
- - CC - C C - C C -- C C
- F - F - F - F - F -- F
12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

This palmas pattern may not always be entirley appropriate, but I don´t think it´s ever completely wrong either. I´ll have to check, but I think I picked this up from Chuck Keyer´s Flamenco Course some 25 years ago.

Phil

PS. Be careful with that 'Bulerias al Golpe' term. In Jerez it does not mean what you think it means.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 17:04:25

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

sorry to bring up a super old thread.. but this is really really interesting reading.

I brought it up for all the newer (aka me) foro users to read.

Ron do you still encourage us to tap bulerias to this?

cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Nope, Jim and Andy,
That's not what I'm meaning...
I mean just tapping your foot on beats 2,4,6,8,10 and 12.
Regardless if the compás is accenting 3 or 7 or anything else.
eg..when I hit the heavily accented 3 in Bulerias chording compás, my foot is up, not down.
So thinking of it as two pairs, (which is useful), it goes.

2,4,6
8,10,12

ie six equally spaced beats covering the whole 12 beat cycle.

I don't know how to explain it any other way!
Just tapping on the "even" beats.
Nothing more exotic than that!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2010 1:54:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

Ron do you still encourage us to tap bulerias to this?

Well, I'm by no means an expert, HolyEvil...just a student myself, but I still find it the easiest way to keep a constant flow going.
Also, you see the professional guitarists do it on YouTube from time to time...so if it's good enough for them...

The only difference with me now is that while my foot is going 2,4,6 etc..I can also "hear" the 1,2 * 4,5 "takataka" beat going inside my head.

The 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 is sometimes good for working out falsetas in advance, but I find it very unreliable for generally keeping time.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2010 8:38:31

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

hope this helps

best thing in this video is at 1:37

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2010 17:39:06

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to XXX)

I thought this was a NEW bulerias by ToddK. I was laughing at the "Todd-free zone" comments and then I realized the dates of the posts..... jeeeesh. And then come to find my ugly mug right there at the end of the thread bitchin about palmas

I was looking forward to laying into to ToddK while he is on his period.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2010 6:10:41

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

What happened to the DVD?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2010 21:43:59

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

You mentioned earlier that you have written extensively about this and are currently working on another paper. I would love to read your material. Could you tell me where I could do so?

The most neatly organized material is in Spanish, about 8000 words so far, but it's for the Peña Bulería in Jerez and can't be publicized until mid-September.

Estela 'Zata'

Could anyone point me to the material on bulerias that Estela is referring to above? It does not matter if it is in Spanish or English. Apparently published in September 2004 or later.

(YES YES, I am resurrecting an old thread)

I'd really appreciate any pointers. THANK YOU!

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2017 18:13:20

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Could anyone point me to the material on bulerias that Estela is referring to above? It does not matter if it is in Spanish or English. Apparently published in September 2004 or later.

That discussion was really a long time ago, I didn't even know I would still receive notifications.

Thirteen years have passed, flamenco has evolved...it's hard to imagine anyone not beating/feeling twos in bulerías. The study I referred to years ago was eventually published in Sevilla Flamenca in a slightly fanciful form, not so analytical. Unfortunately I can't give a precise date, maybe 2005.

Since then I've written a great deal about bulerías. You might like an article of mine that was published in the magazine Acordes. It was written over ten years ago, some concepts may have become outdated...or maybe not.

Sorry...I couldn't figure out how to convert the file to a supported format.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2017 22:44:55

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

Could anyone point me to the material on bulerias that Estela is referring to above? It does not matter if it is in Spanish or English. Apparently published in September 2004 or later.

That discussion was really a long time ago, I didn't even know I would still receive notifications.

Thirteen years have passed, flamenco has evolved...it's hard to imagine anyone not beating/feeling twos in bulerías. The study I referred to years ago was eventually published in Sevilla Flamenca in a slightly fanciful form, not so analytical. Unfortunately I can't give a precise date, maybe 2005.

Since then I've written a great deal about bulerías. You might like an article of mine that was published in the magazine Acordes. It was written over ten years ago, some concepts may have become outdated...or maybe not.

Sorry...I couldn't figure out how to convert the file to a supported format.

Thank you so much! So you are still lurking here (your last post was from 2014 so I worried you do not visit anymore) :-) Wonderful!

P.S. Looks like the bulerias article was published in April 2005. Thanks again!

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2017 23:15:31

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Thank you so much! So you are still lurking here

I hadn't been lurking, in fact I didn't even realize the forum was still active. But yesterday I received notification of your message. Good to see the system is so efficient.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2017 8:26:08

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

Thank you so much! So you are still lurking here

I hadn't been lurking, in fact I didn't even realize the forum was still active. But yesterday I received notification of your message. Good to see the system is so efficient.

BTW do you remember the name of the article in Acordes - and is "Acordes" the full name of the magazine? I am having trouble locating the right revista as the word is so common in the guitar world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2017 16:12:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

Thank you so much! So you are still lurking here

I hadn't been lurking, in fact I didn't even realize the forum was still active. But yesterday I received notification of your message. Good to see the system is so efficient.

BTW do you remember the name of the article in Acordes - and is "Acordes" the full name of the magazine? I am having trouble locating the right revista as the word is so common in the guitar world.

Brother, understanding your curiosity about such an article however, if you read back to page 1 you might pick up on the fact the author of said article argued assuredly that ToddK (of all people, whose audio is gone now I recall was playing a perfect note for note recreation of Tomatito's Paseo de los castaños first couple falsetas to backing track) was simply out of compas. Let me repeat that... the article about compas authored by someone that can't discern what was perfectly in compas is the article you want to read?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 14:26:02

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ricardo)

when i joined this foro in 07 i spent many hours reading through old threads. i think i might have missed this one completely, but have read through it this week with interest.... would really like to actually the hear the audio that caused all the (10 pages of it) controversy.... i wonder if it still exists?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 16:32:54

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
would really like to actually the hear the audio that caused all the (10 pages of it) controversy.... i wonder if it still exists?

Me too. BTW this forum has so many treasures hidden in plain sight. I understand when the regulars sometimes get incredulous that a thread from 10+ years ago can be of any interest, but please see it as a compliment :-)

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 17:19:58

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

would really like to actually the hear the audio that caused all the (10 pages of it) controversy.... i wonder if it still exists?

I didn't know there was an audio...any clues?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 17:23:21

Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to kitarist)

Wow kitarist! Replying to a 7-year old post on a 13-year old thread. Some serious necroposting skills you got there. I'm impressed!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 17:55:52