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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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 RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
You guys don't get it.
Jason Mcguire can play because he has adopted the culture as much as he can. Been to Spain. Has access to all the visiting artists that go to California and I am sure if he played a mistake while accompanying he would be the first to go out and try to learn what he might do better as opposed to saying,
"I know it all. Anybody can do this. Yada, yada, yada."
I am sure Jason knows what he is capable of but he has a respect for the culture.
And if anybody can do it why aren't there more Jasons on the foro.
Ricardo, Jason, Grisha
3 great players
Hmmmmm
Yeah anybody can do it.
By the way,
Ricardo is married to a dancer and is a self-professed nerd.
Jason is married to a dancer and has certainly adopted the lifestyle playing for such greats as the Malenas.
Grisha's life has been the guitar and he is an exception. Not many people can play two styles well.
Get off my thread dammit 
No, i think you are the one who dont get it and dont see why we "loosers" complained here.
Who said: "i know it all. Anybody can do it!!!!"??
We all have respect for the culture and want to become "insiders" as much as possible.
I saved all my money and went to spain to Granada, Jerez, Cordoba, Sevilla, etc. last year because i wanted to learn more from spaniards and see whats going on there and because of my respect to this culture and the origin of flamenco.
I didnt go the beach but to all Tablaos, etc. to see and learn more..
But i cant stand comments like this
quote:
The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.
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Date Feb. 17 2008 6:43:26
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Guest
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RE: Back to the Cante (in reply to Guest)
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Hola
Chocolate, just before he died, came to sing at our Peña with Antonio Carrión. One of the most notable events of the evening was a long soleá, where he extended the compás at the end of practically every verse, not by half compases or by 3s, but randomly. Carrión followed him faithfully, so we had a soleá, sung by a legend, completely out of compas. He received an ovation from an audience of knowledgeable aficionados..
Playing for singers who go out of compas is an occupational hazard: Pascual de Lorca told me that his secret is to give the tones when the cante asks for them, but when the singer stops for breath, be sure to do a remate in the right place to bring things back into compas.
Carrión is son of a singer, a singer himself, has great compas and is one of the most respected accompanists. But with Chocolate, he simply followed the singer.
It occurs to me that this was a case of respect: in Andalucía, older flamencos who have created a personal legend are greatly respected: perhaps they gained the right to sing as they like?
I shall ask Antonio Carrión about this the next time he comes here, but there is little doubt that flamenco is less cut-and-dried that some people would like.
Sean
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Date Feb. 17 2008 23:25:31
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Back to the Cante (in reply to Guest)
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Hi everybody,
I suggest we start a new thread in order to carry on with these discussions. I don't really know much about how this is supposed to work, and since Romerito started this thread, I don't know if it'd be rude of me to start a new one, so I'll just answer some questions that have been posed here on this thread. But I'd be happy to let this one go and start a new one called "Cante" or whatever and just talk about cante. In my opinion, it's best not to lay down the law. One of flamenco's greatest virtues is the collective nature of so many of its components. Flamenco's too big for any single person to understand it completely. It's like the old story about the blind men trying to describe an elephant. One of them grabs hold of a tusk, another touches the trunk, another grabs hold of the tail, etc., and they all describe the elephant differently. The best we can do is to try to have less of a hold on the elephant's butt.  And if someone doesn't understand anything about flamenco, maybe they'll look at it in a way that nobody else ever thought of. That's why I think it's best to talk about "what's out there" instead of rules.
quote:
the Solea Apola sometimes gets cited as having either been influenced by the polo or being
sung as a remate to the polo. It certainly sounds like it has been influenced somewhat by the
polo. It also is considered to be one of the melody sets under the umbrella of Solea de Triana.
What can you say about the Solea Apola Norman or anybody?
You've pretty much said it all, Romerito. There's a group of Triana soleás that are called apolás. I assume that the name comes from turning the word "polo" into the verb "apolar" (=to make something sound like a polo) and shortening the participle "apolada" to "apolá" (=made to sound like a polo).
Nowadays, you might hear these soleás as part of a series of Triana styles or as conclusions to polos and cañas, as heard in old recordings. They say that cañas and polos were far more popular in the 19th century than they are today, and maybe singers used to sing apolás as the endings to those cantes. In any case, early flamencologists contended that cañas and polos, along with serranas, were relics from the past that should be recovered, and certain texts from the period (liner notes, etc.) associate a singer's knowledge of these styles with his or her pureza, depth of knowledge, etc. But that seems to be the result of a romantic and academic view of flamenco held by writers, possibly resulting from the hype surrounding the 1922 Concurso in Granada, because many singers and aficionados have stated that those styles, along with the serrana, are too long-winded and monotonous. There are also literary references that state that some of the variations you hear in cañas and polos were designed to break up the inherent monotony of those cantes.
Of course, we don't know how people used to sing 150 years ago, but if cañas and polos used to be as tedious as they are today, it would make sense to me that apolás were used to end those cantes in a livelier manner, very similar to the way the siguiriya of María Borrico is used to end serranas.
Musically, most of the apolás seem to be just like other Triana soleás, but four styles (El Fillo 1, Silverio 1, Silverio 2 and Enrique Ortega) share sort of a common melody that might have a few points in common with cañas, polos and serranas. I haven't analyzed the matter thoroughly, but what I've heard amounts to just a few notes here and there that are vaguely similar.
quote:
It is about what cultural significance the music has for the people who had a large part
in it and how to be "authentic."
If we're talking about music, all that should matter is being familiar with certain melodies. If we're talking about hanging out at the bar, all that should matter is that other people enjoy your company. It's a tricky subject because, in general, we're talking about native Spaniards' perception of us and, more specifically, about their reaction to our appropriation of part of their cultural identity. My advice is just do the best you can and don't worry about others.
quote:
Do you think they are going to be PC or extra kind. Do you think that they are going to be
happy about someone from outside th culture earning money while they starve. There are a million
questions aside from just playing that affect playing in one way or another.
I may be misinterpreting you, but it's really not that big a deal. Spaniards are pretty laid-back people.
quote:
Do you read notes. I have the first track and a half transcribed. Not the whole track,
just accompaniment and melody. Want to know what you think if you read notation. For a paper I am doing.
If you want to send it to me, I'll have a look at it, but writing cante in musical notation is no easy task, and verifying its accuracy can be even harder.
quote:
any siguiryas developed by singers from lets say Almeria and that "mineing" area.
Hi Henrik. No, siguiriyas seem to come from Western Spain, which is on the other side of the peninsula. That doesn't mean, though, that singers from Eastern Spain don't add their own personal touches to siguiriyas. It seems that the influence of cantes from Eastern Spain can be found in other styles that are from neighboring areas, like some of the cantes abandolaos that are supposed to come from Córdoba. Norberto Torres wrote an interesting article (in Spanish) on the subject, and I think it's on the Triste y Azul website. Mairena wrote in Mundo y Formas that Levante styles are based on an approach that's completely different from the what flamenco singing used to be. Like a brother-in-law or something.
quote:
there is little doubt that flamenco is less cut-and-dried that some people would like.
Hi Sean. Yeah, I agree entirely. Different things happen for all kinds of reasons. Typically, as humans, our understanding often involves simplifying a problem in order to make it fit a rule. By nature, art is usually too dynamic and heterogeneous for simplification. I'll venture a guess, though, as to Chocolate's erratic performance. As you said, that happened just before he died. I saw him in Madrid not long before that, and he kept forgetting the letras. I've heard similar stories about him from that same time period. I think he wasn't too lucid toward the end of his life.
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Date Feb. 18 2008 0:14:23
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Back to the Cante (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
I suggest we start a new thread in order to carry on with these discussions. I don't really know much about how this is supposed to work, and since Romerito started this thread, I don't know if it'd be rude of me to start a new one, so I'll just answer some questions that have been posed here on this thread. But I'd be happy to let this one go and start a new one called "Cante" or whatever and just talk about cante. In my opinion, it's best not to lay down the law. One of flamenco's greatest virtues is the collective nature of so many of its components. Flamenco's too big for any single person to understand it completely. It's like the old story about the blind men trying to describe an elephant. One of them grabs hold of a tusk, another touches the trunk, another grabs hold of the tail, etc., and they all describe the elephant differently. The best we can do is to try to have less of a hold on the elephant's butt. And if someone doesn't understand anything about flamenco, maybe they'll look at it in a way that nobody else ever thought of. That's why I think it's best to talk about "what's out there" instead of rules.
Wise words Norman, really wise, respect to you.
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Date Feb. 18 2008 0:19:07
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