Manuel Torre solea questions

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Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

Manuel Torre solea questions

I recently came across the awesome Antologia de Cantaores Flamenco on Napster and started looking in detail at the solea "Lo que yo hago contigo" on volume 1.

It's on iTunes here
https://itunes.apple.com/es/album/antologia-cantaores-flamencos/id1021041600
on napster here
https://gb.napster.com/artist/various-artists/album/antologia-de-cantaores-flamencos-vol-1-remastered-2015/track/lo-que-yo-hago-contigo-soleares-remastered-2015
and the letras are here
http://tomaflamenco.com/en/tracks/6970

I've got some questions on the guitar playing of Miguel Borrull

First, he starts a compas of filling in the first letra, which he cuts in half when Manuel starts the third line (lo hago por tus niñas). About that half compas - did he have any other choice other than cutting in half and returning to one? i.e. was he 100% obliged to start a new compas as soon as Manuel started the third line? Had he missed the cutting of the compas in half how would he (and Manuel) have handled the cambio?

Then in verse three, Manuel sings a short three line letra. This short sharp ABC structure, which is hardly mentioned at all on canteytoque.es, puts the cambio on line two. What cue / cues did the guitarist have to pull out the cambio so early?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2017 19:58:38

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Dudnote)

I remember asking Pascual de Lorca about what to do when a cantaor does not follow the compás. He said that all you have to do is give the appropriate chords, maintain the compás in your head and do a remate a compás. (Not as easy as it sounds).

However, I once saw Chocolate with Antonio Carrion. Por soleá, Chocolate insisted in doing his remate on un, dos; a compás of 14. Carrión simply followed him, so we had a great 14 beat soleá

Seems that rules are made to be broken: who is going to tell Chocolate or Antonio that they are out of compás? At least they were out together!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2017 23:17:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Dudnote)

This topic has been discussed a lot in the past. THis type of singing is NOT out of compas, and yes it is at the guitarist discression to cut or maintain 12. It seems it used to be considered fine to cut compas por solea or buleria por solea and buleria all for the same exact reasons regarding these types of letras. However, it was due to the unique style of N. Ricardo and Melchor de Marchena and M. Morao (and others of their generation) which codified the trend to maintain 12 count at all cost with the first two, but allow cutting of buleria, in case of Morao to ALWAYS cut the compas anyway as for as RECORDINGS went at least. These recordings were influential to the point "in or out" of compas guitar and voice became important adjectives. Examples are numerous in our cante accompaniment thread (see page 10 for my versions of Moneo's cante), and my examples of the first buleria track where I accomp. The same buleria cante both cuadrao and with half compases all over the place, to show it's about the discression of the guitarist.

Finally a fantastic unique example of how to deal with cante that doesn't lie square on the track is the recent Agujetas and David Serva example where he sticks the 12 count formula however deals with the cambios in a unique manner. Of modern players only Carrion have I notice cutting compas por solea as did borrul montoya and others back in the golden age. I would like to say describing the cante as being "out of compas" in many of these cases does a disservice to the art of both cante and accompaniment, since the modern era of "in compas" singers are nothing more than evolved, through a process of artificial selection via the baile influence, to the present-bland-square-perfectly-in-the-box-boring- style cante that is wrongly believed to be the only proper way to sing in compas.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2017 12:37:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

Then in verse three, Manuel sings a short three line letra. This short sharp ABC structure, which is hardly mentioned at all on canteytoque.es, puts the cambio on line two. What cue / cues did the guitarist have to pull out the cambio so early?

The abc structure is the basic thing, it need not have A repeat or BC-BC typical thing, especially as the final verse of the performance. The same letra (lyrics) is exemplified on canteytoque.es as Frijones 1 though you can hear Manuel do the repeats. I feel his delivery of ABC short version is more like Mellizo 3, as it is mellizo 1 is the example of the previous letra in that performance.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2017 13:18:04

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm still kinda scared of those three line letras. Not quite sure how you'd tell it's coming up. Time to get up to speed with Mellizo variations I guess.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2017 20:51:11

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Dudnote)

Was trying to type a melody for solea to help you but keep losing the posts. I am too frustrated so let me say you got to know the melody of each line of verses A B and C are different....plus the language well enough that you can tell it's repeating or not the words.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2017 6:31:14

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Ricardo)

Muchas gracias Maestro!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2017 7:41:36

Plazoleño

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 16 2017

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Dudnote)

It depend Who sing the manuel's solea but generally they sing in compas.
And Manuel himself singed in compas.
Come on guys we speak about the greatest singer of al time.

How can you think he dont sing in compas ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2017 19:01:13

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Plazoleño)

I never even dared suggest such a thing. All I ever said was I was confused. Don't worry, it happens a lot

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2017 19:45:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Torre solea questions (in reply to Plazoleño)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plazoleño

It depend Who sing the manuel's solea but generally they sing in compas.
And Manuel himself singed in compas.
Come on guys we speak about the greatest singer of al time.

How can you think he dont sing in compas ?

Compas vs cuadrao....to many it is the same thing.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2017 14:41:43

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to Dudnote)

Still messing with this Manuel Torre solea. I got a pretty general guitar question based on the "simple" picado falseta in the intro.

So you got a descending picado run finishing on the A string and you're going to transition to thumb-index for a very standard por medio 10 11 12.

I **** up the transition of technique every time. That darn E string is just in the way - or I get there too late.

So how early do you prepare your thumbs for something like this? By "prepare" I mean hover in to get ready to touch the string. Usually on descending runs my thumb nail moves off the E onto the wood, but here it's got to get back to A fast, so when to start that journey back?

The falseta. Descending from G string to A string. T for thumb on 10, e for index on open top e. Straight quavers.
(1 1/2)Bb A Ab (3) G
(4 1/2)F E Eb (6) D F
E D (8) C Bb C# Bb (T) A e 11 & 12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2017 21:11:53

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Still messing with this Manuel Torre solea. I got a pretty general guitar question based on the "simple" picado falseta in the intro.

So you got a descending picado run finishing on the A string and you're going to transition to thumb-index for a very standard por medio 10 11 12.

I **** up the transition of technique every time. That darn E string is just in the way - or I get there too late.

So how early do you prepare your thumbs for something like this? By "prepare" I mean hover in to get ready to touch the string. Usually on descending runs my thumb nail moves off the E onto the wood, but here it's got to get back to A fast, so when to start that journey back?

The falseta. Descending from G string to A string. T for thumb on 10, e for index on open top e. Straight quavers.
(1 1/2)Bb A Ab (3) G
(4 1/2)F E Eb (6) D F
E D (8) C Bb C# Bb (T) A e 11 & 12

1. I feel like this is all with the thumb - the "picado run". If you do it that way, there is no problem of transition.

2. I hear the run itself a bit differently: (I am assuming you are right in your timings but it just feels rushed to me and not fitting the previous tempo - it does fit into a 12-compas the way you've written it but at a rushed tempo compared to before and after)

(1 1/2)Bb A Ab (3) G
(4 1/2)F E Eb (6) D F
E Eb (8) C D C Bb (10) A e 11 & 12 &

(some changed notes on the second and third line; and I added bolding to where the 3 6 8 10 are to make it clearer the way I understand what you meant)

If you want to just start the thumb from the A, my advice would be to practice slowly just that transition - the last C Bb with im (or mi) followed by the A with pulgar. It does seem awkward to do it that way.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2017 22:37:17

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist
1. I feel like this is all with the thumb - the "picado run". If you do it that way, there is no problem of transition.

2. I hear the run itself a bit differently: (I am assuming you are right in your timings but it just feels rushed to me and not fitting the previous tempo - it does fit into a 12-compas the way you've written it but at a rushed tempo compared to before and after)

(1 1/2)Bb A Ab (3) G
(4 1/2)F E Eb (6) D F
E Eb (8) C D C Bb (10) A e 11 & 12 &

(some changed notes on the second and third line; and I added bolding to where the 3 6 8 10 are to make it clearer the way I understand what you meant)

If you want to just start the thumb from the A, my advice would be to practice slowly just that transition - the last C Bb with im (or mi) followed by the A with pulgar. It does seem awkward to do it that way.

Thanks man.

Yeah, you definetly don't hear guitarists be that elastic with compas these days - the cajon player would kill them

All thumb hey? That's definetly cheating!! Nice fast thumb work though.

Your probably right about the different notes. I've not yet worked out how to get Napster downloads into a slow downer and was writing from memory. Great to have another variation on this one.

I guess you're right. Repeat that transition 100 times and it'll feel better. I did a bit of that earlier and was finding a very early prepare wasn't as necessary as I first feared - although a transition leaves plenty of scope for messing up on stage.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2017 3:25:29

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote
I've not yet worked out how to get Napster downloads into a slow downer and was writing from memory.

I don't think you can get napster downloads to play into anything but their napster app/player anymore - since Jul 2017 or so. See this.

There is a workaround for urgent situations (meaning it seems too time consuming to be used as a default action so you probably have to find a different solution long-term) - you can use a free program to record the stream of audio from your computer as you are playing the song in the Napster app - then you can use that recorded unencrypted audio file to feed into slowdowner.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2017 15:33:30

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to kitarist)

Thanks for the tip Konstantine. For working slowly with small number of media files this looks likea good approach.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2017 21:03:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How early to prepare the thumb? (in reply to Dudnote)

Unfortunately the knee obscures the view a bit but at 2:08 you see the run all the way down to low E, then up stroke (can't see but it's index) a hammer on 11 actually facilitates thumb ease to hit 5th string before 12, the 12 is the golpe....I know it's Alegrias but the remate idea is the same, and this is very fast. He does the same falseta later on but same angle so ....the trick to work on is hitting the low bass note on 10 with picado, then jumping way down and underneath the treble E string on the "&" with the upstroke. It's only 8th notes, so it's not crazy but take a bit of work to coordinate.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2017 21:05:56