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Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is too drunk to be annoyed
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
Whilst I'll admit there's some pretty awful modern music that seems to pass itself off as hip hop these days, at its roots hip hop has more than a fair bit in common with our beloved flamenco.
It's not modern music that "seems to pass itself off as hip hop these days" that's pretty awful; in my opinion it's hip hop itself that's pretty awful. Sorry, but hip hop does not have "more than a fair bit in common with our beloved flamenco." Not by a long shot. If you are a fan of hip hop, fair enough. To each his own. But please don't insult flamenco by lumping it in with, and claiming it has much in common with, hip hop.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 12 2017 16:11:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
A lot of the gitano kids here seem to like rap and quite a few of them mix it up with flamenco.
I have no doubt that is true. And it is one reason why even in Andalucia the future bodes ill for flamenco, as an ever-shrinking cohort of aficionados who appreciate the real thing (even in its more "modern" version) mount a rear-guard action to save it from the homogenized drivel that results from the insidious importation of elements like rap and hip hop into the genre. Unfortunately, valiant as it may be, the rear-guard action will fail, as it will be overwhelmed by those shallow souls who, like lemmings following each other off a cliff, strive to outdo each other as to who can be more (here you can fill in the blank: "different," "experimental," "with it," etc.)_________ .
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 12 2017 17:35:45
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Stu
Posts: 2521
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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RYTYHM, POETRY oppression, minority, ghettos, anger, sadness, dancing, happiness, family, drugs, fun, group dancing, bravado, love, passion, food.... Etc etc
I could be describing either. I'm not just taking about the music, I'm talking about the culture which is in twined with and gave birth to that music. If you don't see the simularities then you're plain ignorant. In a nice way. If anything comes that deep from the heart who is anyone to dismiss either as rubbish, nonsense, garbage??
I'm not saying anyone has to like it. That would be ridiculous.
I'm just saying have some respect for other art forms. Cos real artists and music lovers do.
Yeah not really up for the flamenco/hip hop mix tho. I must admit. Apart from in the vid. Haha
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Date Sep. 13 2017 18:17:53
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
I'm talking about the culture which is in twined with and gave birth to that music. If you don't see the simularities then you're plain ignorant. If anything comes that deep from the heart who is anyone to dismiss either as rubbish, nonsense, garbage?? I'm not saying anyone has to like it. That would be ridiculous. I'm just saying have some respect for other art forms. Cos real artists and music lovers do.
I will ignore the ad hominem attack, Stu, and chalk it up to having a bad day. Nevertheless, just because something comes from a certain segment of someone's "culture" and comes from the "heart" does not in and of itself make it good music or art. As for having "respect for other art forms," many of us have the greatest respect for other art forms. that does not mean that all art forms are equally valid and interesting. A lot of art forms and music produced today are junk. There is nothing wrong with discriminating among those that one considers worthy and those that are not. That is a decision that rests with the individual and will vary according to one's experience and taste. To make such distinctions indicates an active mind. To fail to make such distinctions indicates the opposite.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 13 2017 20:12:14
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Stu
Posts: 2521
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw)
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Believe it or not, I don't even really like hip hop. I did once for a little while, but I haven't listened to a hip hop track in many years.
Whatever the genres, how anyone can get upset or angry at a group of musicians jamming, getting down, playing together and clearly having a fantastic time is beyond me.
I mean who cares if you don't like the music. I don't particularly like the 'music' (material) in that video. What I do like though, is the connection, between people, cultures and genres that rarely collide.
If fellow humans are clearly having a good time when connecting through music, then a guy rapping over some country western guitar, a violinist playing with a guy on a pop synthesizer, a metal guitarist and an African drummer then you're a fool if you wanna piss on that bonfire. (not directed at anyone specifically, no personal attack intended)
If the musicians are smiling and connecting then how can you be upset by such a thing??
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Date Sep. 14 2017 10:14:03
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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For me I like many different genre's, I tend to gravitate with pride to the more obscure, lesser known or popular material, though I am quite proud when these type of artists make it big in other ways. For example, hearing PDL on the radio with Bryan Adams was really cool IMO, despite the obvious commerciality and all that goes with that good and bad.
I would have to say the two most grounded genres that get me are flamenco and 80's metal. I admit when I was a kid I was really into Rap....again it was underground and I took it with pride that I had memorized obscure rap artist material that I thought were not mainstream. Ice-T for one from Breakin, nobody knew that stuff back then...then after Run DMC it started to go mainstream, even Ice T became a movie star and it was all down hill for me from there. 2Live Crew was pretty much the beginning of the end of what I would consider the "art" of the genre, nasty as they wanna be with the narrow low class sex/drug topic and the sampling crap. Of course they were great aficionados of tasty rock guitar, but it was just bad taste IMO. Then it was all over M tV and while there was hints of cool collaborations such as anthrax and Public enemy, the inevitable trashy "gangsta rap" that took over mainstream was just not inspiring, in fact, embarrassing IMO. I can understand folks relate to school and friends as with any pop music of their time and can get those cool vibes but that's about as far as I can relate to the appeal. But it's probably my generation is the main thing.
The jazz flamenco connection really begins with Miles Davis specifically, who really had an affinity for it. Of course he became a fusion pioneer soon after that specific connection was made in the late 50's and 60's. I get the connection to guitar of course, but as for the singing, the thing that I was able to relate to about the cante as a foreigner is my appreciation for the wailing powerful expressivity of heavy metal vocals....the rhythm and control and range, the emphasis on being born with a certain timbre, the need to project the voice, the fact it is not a "polite and pretty" to general public way to sing a melody, raw and ugly at times in order to deliver the lyric that might not be about love, etc. I made an immediate connection that I know most folks would never make, but that's just me. It's also why I might gravitate toward certain cantaores vs others I think.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 14 2017 12:06:45
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
Research suggests not everyone experiences this physiological response; ...
Mentioned it before on the forum.
Wanting to introduce unknown kind of music to individuals who were grown up with another genre of very limited harmonic and rhythmic range, I put Pink Floyd´s "Wish you Were Here" album on the turn table, cranked it up and let them alone.
Observing them from a far, it showed from start that they weren´t enjoying much. Afterwards, asked how they liked it, they said something to the extent of that in this music there somehow were played "wrong notes".
They showed insensitive to any rhythmically and melodically rich music that had thrilled the world before (yet, had not been aired in the secluded cultural realm of these listeners).
The more musically scarce the resource individuals grow up with, the rather limited their musical sensors appear to be ending up.
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In view of rhythm: First of all I think that it makes sense to distinguish that there exists a trivial and monotonous sort, which any running diesel engine alikes can give, and rhythm that animates through diverse kinds of related structure.
The first kind of rhythm will animate brain response that triggers trance, and which is commonly used by shamans and similar spiritual performers in order to transfer themselves into an enraptured state of mind. (Accidentally, there was a TV docu about it just last night, claiming that all ancient cultures had been fancying the same kind of chimera creatures in trance.)
With frequent exposure to monotonous signal, brain function will degenerate as well however. The basic cerebral formula being, what goes in will come out. Complexity / systematics being fuel.
A circumstance that is being used for torturing political prisoners too. When they come out from a long time exposure to monotonous audition their intellectual state will have degraded correspondingly. (And if the monotonous content contained absurd message, it will have been absorbed on top.)
Monotonous rhythm (with no or little melodic content) certainly does produce an emotional state of mind. It is however different source and effect, from phenomenon with music.
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Where there is not understood why establishing of undemanding trends and "art" makes reason to worry, there is no understanding of relevance of culture.
Culture is every bit that makes humans. No random occurrence that may either be trivial or sophisticated and not be mattering anyhow.
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Check out cultures with simplicistic music structure and those with complex ones, and then look at their individual state of civilization. There are pretty obvious parallels.
There is being observed how varying kinds of music correspondingly effect life stock and even agrarian product.
How on earth could level of consumption and produce be regardless to humans?
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Date Sep. 14 2017 13:16:35
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw)
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quote:
For 'chills' it seems we need both the Apollonian and Dionysian
Thanks for the recommended reading orsonw. This is very interesting to me. I would have assumed that we were all capable of it, just some more than others, and more importantly I would have assumed that it was purely Dyonisian. This makes me reconsider.
@Ruphus We also use isolation as punishment for prisoners. And yet now the evidence is piling up on the many benefits of spending long durations of time in isolation, doing what they call meditation. Basically put, I don't think this example says anything about the effects of "monotonous music" at all. It all depends on how individual human beings frame it. With the exact same intensity of pain, if you associate the pain with exercice and health, you'll probably enjoy the sensation. Associate it with disease, and you'll hate every single bit of it. Anyways, if the point is that overexposure to monotonous music can be bad for you, as in being locked up and having to listen to the same thing over and over again for days on end, then I'd just quote what Stephen Fry tells Hugh Laurie when he asks whether "too much" of these "herbal cigarettes" are bad for him or not:
-"Well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means you blithering ****. If you had too much water it would be bad for you, wouldn't it? "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means. Could you ever say "too much water is good for you"? I mean if it's too much it's too much. Too much of anything is too much. Obviously. Jesus."
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Sep. 14 2017 14:51:13
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
We also use isolation as punishment for prisoners. And yet now the evidence is piling up on the many benefits of spending long durations of time in isolation, doing what they call meditation. Basically put, I don't think this example says anything about the effects of "monotonous music" at all. It all depends on how individual human beings frame it. With the exact same intensity of pain, if you associate the pain with exercice and health, you'll probably enjoy the sensation. Associate it with disease, and you'll hate every single bit of it. Anyways, if the point is that overexposure to monotonous music can be bad for you, as in being locked up and having to listen to the same thing over and over again for days on end, then I'd just quote what Stephen Fry tells Hugh Laurie when he asks whether "too much" of these "herbal cigarettes" are bad for him or not:
-"Well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means you blithering ****. If you had too much water it would be bad for you, wouldn't it? "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means. Could you ever say "too much water is good for you"? I mean if it's too much it's too much. Too much of anything is too much. Obviously. Jesus."
Effects through isolation are rather well known. Also chosen isolation for means of recreation in view of effects depends on conducting state of mind. It can either mean relaxation or dullness, which are very different states from each other. ( https://books.google.com/books?id=7mzuv9KdirwC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=effects+of+monotony+on+brain&source=bl&ots=JGzErrnz_C&sig=Vy3l7bCkLFBadSwwV1lgvoXGWtE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX5Z3jhKXWAhXmPZoKHW_HBOgQ6AEIbjAJ )
I am all with your quoted example of overdose, however it won´t do in conjunction with discussed exposure in culture. As any low-time will be less time of distinction and cognition.
In each period of sleep the brain sorts meaningful input. The less there has been over the day the less it can store. It starves. Diversity, systematics and distinction are brains food.
Any measure of monotony can only be feed to dullness and neurosis. There is no benefit and advance of it anytime.
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Date Sep. 14 2017 16:21:27
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
Whatever the genres, how anyone can get upset or angry at a group of musicians jamming, getting down, playing together and clearly having a fantastic time is beyond me.
I don't think anyone commenting on this thread is "upset" or "angry" at them. In my case, I am simply expressing my opinion of rap and hip hop, and the negative effect it would have on flamenco were it to seriously influence the genre. As I mentioned in a comment above, just because some element of music or art relates to someone's "culture" or comes from the "heart" does not render it immune from criticism. Critical thinking and judgment is what separates human beings from your average orangutan.
It is clear from the comments on this thread that we have very different reactions. Nevertheless, each individual's reaction is a product of his experience and taste, and those in turn influence how he views the genre, in this case rap and hip hop. It would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on issues such as this.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 14 2017 16:55:42
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Stu
Posts: 2521
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
don't think anyone commenting on this thread is "upset" or "angry" at them. In my case, I am simply expressing my opinion of rap and hip hop, and the negative effect it would have on flamenco were it to seriously influence the genre. As I mentioned in a comment above, just because some element of music or art relates to someone's "culture" or comes from the "heart" does not render it immune from criticism. Critical thinking and judgment is what separates human beings from your average orangutan.
It is clear from the comments on this thread that we have very different reactions. Nevertheless, each individual's reaction is a product of his experience and taste, and those in turn influence how he views the genre, in this case rap and hip hop. It would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on issues such as this.
Bill
Couldn't agree more.
I must make clear. I never meant to imply that I thought hip hop should influence or be involved with flamenco in any way other than fun like that video. I would hate that!!
I don't think any art is above criticism either. It's essential. I just meant that art forms such as flamenco, hip hop, jazz, what have you should be respected when being criticized and sweeping emotional statements that amount to 'slagging off' should be avoided. (Not that that's really happened here, just in the past.)
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Date Sep. 15 2017 11:08:19
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Gabewolf
Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio
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RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
RYTYHM, POETRY oppression, minority, ghettos, anger, sadness, dancing, happiness, family, drugs, fun, group dancing, bravado, love, passion, food.... Etc etc
I agree Stu, I was just in Andalucia for the first time this summer and the parallels between flamenco culture and hip-hop culture are apparent. Living in Cleveland, which has a huge rap scene, I have made similar conclusions upon arriving back to the US about the connections between the two art forms. Many have denounced hip-hop as a music due to it's lack of virtuosity or talent, I would like to make the point that the genre is only a half century old, compared to flamenco, which is at least two centuries old and has had much more time to develop. Also, I think many have diminished the talent of rappers due to their distaste of the music or content, but rapping well is actually very difficult, especially if you get into freestyle rapping. When I was a teenager I spent a lot of time trying to rap, but failed horribly and went back to playing rock n' roll.
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Date Sep. 18 2017 21:18:37
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