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Nut and saddle filing -is this guide good?   You are logged in as Guest
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mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017
 

Nut and saddle filing -is this guide... 
So, impulse ebay purchase and I'm the proud owner of a spares or repairs guitar.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222617896965

As you can see, original nut and saddle are missing so I've no template to copy so need to start from first principles. Don't really care about this scratches for now - this is my messing about / travel / tinkering guitar.

I found this vid on youtube which seems to cover the process more or less...



Got a couple of cheap plastic ebay nuts and saddles ready for filing.

I've got a couple of cheap plastic nuts and saddles ready to file down and fit. Bought several to allow a few offerings to the foul-up gods...

Anything I should watch out for not in the vid, or suggestions for how process can be improved for lowish action flamenco guitars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2017 15:54:31
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
The video speaks for itself but I would advise you not to push a nut or saddle through a power sander like that, as it could release and come back to you and cause some damage, with the material, as well as physical injury.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2017 16:38:34
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
Don't bother with plastic - use bone. You are going to all the bother of setting up so use something that will reflect your efforts. Plastic ones will be good for a trial run though. You will get far superior results with bone - wear a mask for the dust. Good luck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2017 16:20:17
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to Flamingrae) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flamingrae

Don't bother with plastic - use bone. You are going to all the bother of setting up so use something that will reflect your efforts. Plastic ones will be good for a trial run though. You will get far superior results with bone - wear a mask for the dust. Good luck.

This is good advice. Not only is bone better, it's easier to work.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2017 23:13:54
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
The top of the nut should be angled towards the head of the guitar about 10 degrees. And the strings should not be spaced evenly. Rather, they should be spaced so that they appear evenly spaced notwithstanding the fact that they vary in diameters. StewMac sells a handy ruler for doing this easily: http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Straightedges/String_Spacing_Rule.html

I agree with Tom that putting a nut or saddle in a sander as shown is very dangerous. At least wear good eye protection if you do that.

The video suggests putting the nut blank in the slot flush to one end and then marking the other end with a half pencil. I suggest putting it in the slot with both ends sticking out and marking both ends, because neither should likely be square all around.

And don't use plastic.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2017 2:12:03
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 551
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RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
Thanks guys.

The nuts I bought already have small grooves in top. So short of starting again, will see how it goes.

Might eventually get bone, but I'd at least like a template that works.

I -know- this is a dumb question, but SHOULD the saddle have grooves on top? I can't see any reference to whether they should or not and I'm guessing not. But my old 80s guitar has small grooves (0.5mm) where the strings come over the top - probably from wear from old age - or could it be deliberate?

Buffing - suggestions how to with cheap home tools? I have a dremel clone but not sure what best type of head would be?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2017 8:57:30
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
You do not need any power tools to set up bones. It is easy, but requires care. The most important thing is that the base must be flat. The set of files from Stewmac are almost essential for an amateur and make life easier for many pros.

But you appear to know very little so take it to a professional, or start reading books.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2017 14:55:32
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
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RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
quote:

The set of files from Stewmac are almost essential for an amateur and make life easier for many pros.

Possibly, but at $160 for the set that may be a bridge (sorry folks) too far. For a first foray into this, a student needle file set should do - one with a decent rat tail file. That and a steady hand. Saw cut, open up with a triangular, finish with the rat tail (Round tapered file). If you really want gapping files, you can make your own from older files by grinding to the required thickness.
A bit of independent reading might be a good idea as this subject may have been covered a few times here before. Try looking up the subject in search.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2017 22:24:54
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to Flamingrae) 
quote:

Saw cut, open up with a triangular, finish with the rat tail (Round tapered file).


Another method is to first mark the locations with shallow cuts from a razor saw. Then lay each string on its location and mark the width of the string using the half pencil. Now use the saw again, rotating it left and right, left and right, so that it cuts a groove the exact width of the string. Clean up with the rat-tail file. I did it this way for years.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 1:01:10
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
Thanks Ethan - I like the sound of that approach. I got a bunch of rounded needle files which i think will do at a pinch.
.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 11:02:40
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
I had to do this on two guitars and bought the Stewmac files and vice. Money well spent.
Sanding can be done by hand just keep everything flat and go slow to get a good fit.
Use a piece of glass or granite for a flat surface.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 20:12:08
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to Cervantes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

I had to do this on two guitars and bought the Stewmac files and vice. Money well spent.


I've been building guitars for about 50 years and have never owned a set of nut files. Get a cheap set of strings for a steel string dreadnaught, file the grooves with a standard triangular file, use the bottom three strings from the steel string set to grind the grooves into the proper shape by sliding them back and forth. It takes a little practice but I've never had a customer complain about the result. As anyone who frequents this list can testify, I love tools (particularly power tools) but sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Those files are ridiculously expensive, I'm sure they work great but they are mainly for steel string guitars which require much more finesse when setting up the action.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 22:34:26
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
I know a mechanic who fixed carburetors by whacking them with a ball peen hammer seven times. It sorta worked, but his business really took off after he bought some professional sets of wrenches.




I know, you're asking yourself, what the hell is a carburetor?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 0:18:33
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to estebanana) 
Bodger voyage of discovery continues.

So I've discovered why the guitar was cheap.

Having spent many hours slowly filing away at the saddle then popping it in and out from under a 1st and sixth string to check, I ended up with the saddle disappearing into the holder slot. 20/20 hindsight I should have just laid strings on the holder without any saddle then worked UP. It is -only- a fraction too high (by 1 - 2mm?) now action-wise, measured with it just resting on the saddle-holder groove thing (no idea of the term). Worse on 1st rather than 6th (as flat profile?).

This is a cheap guitar so neck reset / refrets not on the table.

I'm contemplating using a semicircular file to recess into the slot where the strings meet it, to create 3mm deep grooves for a lowered saddle to fit into. Then restain it to disguise the carnage. Otherwise I'd have to file the whole thing lower which removes ability to put higher saddle in later.

Interestingly under the nut I see a coup;le of grooves in the neck which I assume are for graphite rods? So this in theory should not have happened?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2017 11:16:10
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to mrstwinkle) 
Guessing where you are at. I've done a bit of rescuing in the past.
I'm hoping you have plenty of depth in the saddle groove - if not you may have to rout or chisel the depth down.

1/ Provided you have plenty of depth in the groove for the saddle, masking tape round the bridge, plane the part where the saddle is down so it will fit and still protrude.
If everything is good after you've done this - great. What I usually find is that the break angle is not very good and in some cases non existent, in which case.....

2/ you may need to consider plugging and re-drilling the holes (12 is better than 6) to get a decent break angle again. 1mm and 1.5mm drills silver soldered on to a length of steel work well - but if you don't have these, this can be another challenge.

3/ Along with this you might need to consider the height of the bridge and lower the height of the tie block to again help with No.2. This is pretty common in cheap guitars.

4/ After completing No1, open a tin of beer, take a step back and check the lay of the land. Get it as good as you can without bursting a gut and then enjoy it. There is a saying - "You cannot polish a turd". Good luck!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2017 20:50:19
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Nut and saddle filing -is this g... (in reply to Flamingrae) 
quote:

Flamingrae


Glad to hear someone else has been there.

Yeah - saddle groove could be a problem. I've decided to cut a fresh saddle as the last one isn't perfectly flat-edged and I need this one to be a TIGHT fit in the newly lowered slot. I'm optimistically thinking the lack of height might mean I get away with it - we'll see....

Same with break angle - at least I got lucky there and existing holes sit quite low. Low enough? We'll see when new saddle cut and fresh strings arrive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2017 22:35:01
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