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RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Why are solo records death?
Ever listen to Link Wray? Watch this guy listen to Wray:
Right? He is into it, and Rumble is a very basic groove, but it is not easy to play and make such a seemly simple thing interesting. It takes a right hand, and an ear for tone and detail to pull it off.
Eduardo de la Malena being Link Wray for Juan Talega - there's nothing scary about it, except that to pull it off it takes a good right hand, a profound understanding of groove, an ear for tone and details.
I've gone to too many parties where guys who only listen to solos tickle the guitar. If you had a beautiful woman, would you tickle or get serious? Going after solo material too many people develop a tentative right hand, ain't nobody got time for that. I want to go to a party and feel like Jimmy Page listening to Link Wray because someone can play flamenco power chords in compas. Page got to be Page because he figured out among other things, Wray's moves, it was a foundation he used to become the most bad assed player.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
"My advice is forget solos as listening material, but play solos to learn"
Sounds like you're saying he should play stuff he doesn't listen to.
My advice is to go to better parties.
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RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
Dead on IMO. Take lessons from a good player who is out there doing gigs with other flamencos. Or, an old pro who has decades of doing the same.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Learn the tonos for arriba and por medio. And solea and siguiriya compas.
Then take Skype lessons with a known player who has both tradition and modern chops. Or just old style chops. Or take lessons with a live old style player first.
You tube is good for a reference and expansion of your knowledge, but don't allow it to displace professional teaching. You tube does not replace the professional teacher. We're all fighting the battlefield of amateur vs. professional, support the professional with in person or Skype lessons.
Have enough class and respect for the art to seek out and pay for professional teaching. Books and YouTube are supplement material. And use the foro for extra help and learning from the collective knowledge that is kept here. Please.
If you are in a cost prohibitive situation on lessons cost, listen deeply to the accompaniment por solea and not solea solo playing. Get old and new recordings por solea with singers and saturate your musical brain in that soup. My advice is forget solos as listening material, but play solos to learn. Listen to Paco Aguilar play solea comp for Juan Talega. Then something more modern and of the day, but solo records are death.
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RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
If you just want to play guitar, bueno. But you should know that if you come to Andalucía and open a guitar case, someone will begin to sing. If you do not know how to accompany, you will be dismissed as a guitar player, however well you should play I have seen it lots of times.
True enough. But we are talking about somebody learning flamenco guitar, not an accomplished player "opening a guitar case" at a juerga in andalucia. First things first. There was a time in the U.S. (late '50s and throughout the '60s) when many of us first cut our teeth on listening to solo flamenco guitar at concerts by Carlos Montoya and Sabicas. No cante, no baile, just straight up flamenco guitar. It was not a bad introduction. It was only later that I began to appreciate cante, and now I love it. But you don't need to start out playing by accompanying cante.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I started out the same-Sabicas and Montoya. I took lessons from an old school player. I already had plenty of guitar experience. He had moved to the states and carved out a solo career, playing concerts mostly for non aficionados. His training did not emphasize accompaniment, or compas for that matter. He of course was an excellent accompanist but he trained people to do what worked for him in the states. I'm sure he thought he was doing what was best for his students, and perhaps in large part he was. Being a decent student, a few years later I found myself playing solo in a Spanish restaurant when a drunk Spaniard started singing fandangos. I knew no less than three fandangos solos, none of which prepared me to accompany him. I ate some humble pie. Learning the tonos for fandangos would have been easier than learning to perform those solos, and much more valuable. I think learning to play for flamenco songs is way more important than learning falsetas or solos, neither of which are required to accompany. Finally, it's simply way more fun to play with and for others than to play solo IMO. So, I'd say learning the chords and compas needed to play for others is best to work on right from the start.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
If you just want to play guitar, bueno. But you should know that if you come to Andalucía and open a guitar case, someone will begin to sing. If you do not know how to accompany, you will be dismissed as a guitar player, however well you should play I have seen it lots of times.
True enough. But we are talking about somebody learning flamenco guitar, not an accomplished player "opening a guitar case" at a juerga in andalucia. First things first. There was a time in the U.S. (late '50s and throughout the '60s) when many of us first cut our teeth on listening to solo flamenco guitar at concerts by Carlos Montoya and Sabicas. No cante, no baile, just straight up flamenco guitar. It was not a bad introduction. It was only later that I began to appreciate cante, and now I love it. But you don't need to start out playing by accompanying cante.
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From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
Can't watch that video just yet but I'll check it later. Thanks.
Don't get me wrong. I totally get it and by no means am I promoting just be a solo guitar player... (Although if that's what one is happy with, cool.)
I was just curious as to why you think solo records can be death? If Mr x decides to listen to solo guitar albums and recreate Paco falsetas for the rest of his time then I get you. He will have missed the point. But if he truly gets the bug then the rest (what you talk of) will follow no???
I guess the main point is the tentative right hand. I can see how that could potentially spell death. And developing that strength and groove in the right hand early on would be better than leaving it too late.
I too have seen that tickling you speak of and I agree. It's not pleasant.
As I write this though, a troubling thought has crossed my mind. When I started out I was young and had dreams of moving to Spain.. To recreate my heroes and live something akin to the 'life' however what I am now is a new dad, that has to work plenty, plays guitar for the odd dance class, listens to much less flamenco than he'd like and hasn't moved to Spain. So maybe You're right. Maybe those early adventures with Paco, Vicente and Gerardo et al did spell death for me. Perhaps if I'd got straight into the cante id have been making waves in Triana right now and strumming late into the night. Just a thought.
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RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu)
I would love to play with the Jerezano thumb and strum. I think this is soleá por bulería, whatever, but El Capullo is my favourite live cantaor, by far. To have seen him at the Fiesta de la Bulería is an eternal, treasured memory.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Mark2)
I am probably the worst guitarist on this forum, but I can accompany cante and could call on cantaores such as Santiago Donday, José Millán or Rancapino in my defence.
So I think that a beginner should learn the structure of basic cantes and simply play the chords in correct timing to begin.
Fandangos must be the simplest of all: the cantaor sings a letra, you play 4 notes, another letra, 4 more notes, etc. When he sings the last letra, a rasgeo. 12 bar blues is more difficult
Soleá (eg de Triana) can be reduced to a simple sequence of chords which follow the compás.
Alegrías only needs 3 chords (later you can add 7ths and secondary dominants etc).
When a beginner has the basic structure he can begin to add embellishments, such as arpegios etc and might even begin to invent falsets following the structure.
But with just the basic structure he could open his guitar case in Andalucía and not be laughed at.
Not everyone can be Ricardo but anyone can be flamenco if they try
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Ever listen to Link Wray?
You bet I have, Stephen. In fact, I was listening to Link Wray play his signature hit "Rumble" back in 1958 when it came out. Another reverb/twang guitarist from that era was Duane Eddy ("Rebel Rouser") who was recording in my home town of Phoenix, Arizona at that time. I was listening to both at the same time I was introduced to flamenco guitar via the vinyl albums of Carlos Montoya and Sabicas, as well as seeing montoya in live performance in Phoenix.
Another guitarist who played some very interesting stuff a little later was John Fahey. His album "Blind Joe Death" is great. I still have it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
So, I'd say learning the chords and compas needed to play for others is best to work on right from the start.
I'm not arguing against learning to accompany cante from the start. I'm just saying that it's not crucial, particularly in a case such as mine where I still very much enjoy playing and listening to solo guitar. I understand as well as anyone the importance of cante in flamenco. It is the origin of it all. I love to listen to cante. One of my favorite CDs is "Morrongo" with Paco Cepero accompanying Santiago Donday, smoky voice and all. Yet, my love of solo guitar has not diminished since embracing cante years ago. There are many dimensions to flamenco, and I embrace them all, although I must say that in order of priority I would place baile last.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
Not everyone can be Ricardo but anyone can be flamenco if they try
Yep. I saw that in Jerez and Granada so many times that I'm beginning to think about starting all over again. Just for my own amusement. Nothing fancy, just some thumb and strum.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
For what it's worth, the guitar is 1000% the most important part of flamenco to me. Maybe that's not the accepted truth of aficionados, and maybe it will change in future, but it sounds like it isn't an unusual way in to to the art.
I'll probably get more into the cante and the baile with time, but it was the guitar that brought me here and I can't imagine either the cante or baile keeping my attention alone - whereas a guitar solo can be incredible.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH There are many dimensions to flamenco, and I embrace them all, although I must say that in order of priority I would place baile last.
Ah, but nothing irons out crappy compas and execution better than a really pissed off dancer!!
The OP should get down to their local dance schools ASAP. Even if you're not yet ready to accomp the classes the teacher would most likely point you at the sorts of recordings they like to work with. Then you just start learning those songs. If you're working with beginner dancers a teacher will love having a guitarist around who can go way slower than the CD. If there's another guitarist there already then they can teach you some stuff. Dance classes also give plenty of scope for improvisation - so long as your noodling doesn't offend the dance teacher.
The sex anology is perfect. Flamenco really is more fun with other people.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés)
It's just that cante is the backbone of the whole thing. You wouldn't have the other stuff without it. I think even if you intend to only play guitarra sola, it's in your interest to have some understanding of cante. I know I wish I had paid more attention to it when I first started. Because even with certain solo pieces, I have the impression that I missed something before. I don't know, maybe I just wasn't listening closely enough, but, whatever it was, once I got into cante, I had to revisit those solo pieces and it changed pretty significantly. It might just be that it's easier to grasp the intent behind a song when there's a voice involved. It's almost impossible to get it wrong, but when it's just instrumental, there's a whole lot more room for "misinterpretation".
Since you're starting from guitarra sola, one way in to cante that is probably pretty common is looking for more stuff from whatever guitarist it is that you like, and then you find the stuff where they're accompanying. And it's pretty interesting to hear falsetas in a new context. You have those moments of recognition "hey! I recognize that bit, that's from this solo album!" And at that point you're still listening to it for the guitar but meanwhile the cante is sneaking up on you. That's how they get you!
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RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
It's just that cante is the backbone of the whole thing. You wouldn't have the other stuff without it. I think even if you intend to only play guitarra sola, it's in your interest to have some understanding of cante. I know I wish I had paid more attention to it when I first started. Because even with certain solo pieces, I have the impression that I missed something before. I don't know, maybe I just wasn't listening closely enough, but, whatever it was, once I got into cante, I had to revisit those solo pieces and it changed pretty significantly. It might just be that it's easier to grasp the intent behind a song when there's a voice involved. It's almost impossible to get it wrong, but when it's just instrumental, there's a whole lot more room for "misinterpretation".
Since you're starting from guitarra sola, one way in to cante that is probably pretty common is looking for more stuff from whatever guitarist it is that you like, and then you find the stuff where they're accompanying. And it's pretty interesting to hear falsetas in a new context. You have those moments of recognition "hey! I recognize that bit, that's from this solo album!" And at that point you're still listening to it for the guitar but meanwhile the cante is sneaking up on you. That's how they get you!
Yeah I get that cante is the root of it all, and it would be a shame to never embrace the whole, I'm sure I'll get there but there's no point forcing it. I'm very clear about what I enjoy right now, and I'm happy to focus on it for now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dudnote
The sex anology is perfect. Flamenco really is more fun with other people.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
I think dudnote just called me a w*nker...
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
Piwin,
I implied listen to old cante, but play the solos if you don't have a singer. But if you want to play solos, fine don't listen to Uncle Steve. I'm 1000% sure you'll become a ****.
Parties, yes everyone should strive to make it to better parties. Paco de L. said he spent half his life in juergas playing for singers. And maybe tinkling a few solos.
But if you learn flamenco and you don't develop a good right hand and know the basic tonos for each palo for cante, just stick with classical. Seriously? Why bother at all? Any beginner who tries to make a case for guitar over cante is a moron....yuck yuck and not a Moron at the Frontier, just a plain moron. Life is too short to suffer these fools, in Spain they sure don't.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
For the polar opposite of a wimpy right hand, check out Manuel Morao accompanying Terremoto (padre) por siguiriyas:
AH HAH!
A media Luna sans the horrid orange paint! Nice. This is great because it shows that sound that good dry Conde' has is divorced from that dog sh$t they paint them with. My dislike of Conde is not the guitar, it's the injustice on the modern paint job.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
And speaking of Eduardo el de la Malena, here he is with Chocolate por Seguiriyas de Manuel Torre:
For this palo all you really need is that falseta at 3:17 and the arpeggio at 4:24 and a few tight closes. Of course Siguiriya has never been big fodder for solo playing.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
I think dudnote just called me a w*nker...
Well now you mention it, perhaps finally I agree with Stu - that a basic grounding in what does and does not work when going solo is a healthy basis for moving on to a successful relationship.
At the very least - all the guys here seem to agree, you're gonna need a strong right hand.
And you know what they say, 90% of flamenco guitarists admit to practicing solo, the other 10% are lying.
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From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Dudnote)
quote:
Well now you mention it, perhaps finally I agree with Stu - that a basic grounding in what does and does not work when going solo is a healthy basis for moving on to a successful relationship.
At the very least - all the guys here seem to agree, you're gonna need a strong right hand.
And you know what they say, 90% of flamenco guitarists admit to practicing solo, the other 10% are lying.
Hahaha. one day you may find yourself home alone, on a cold, lonely evening. All the cantaors have left you.. And the only option you is some solo guitar . :(
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
I think dudnote just called me a w*nker...
welcome to the foro
Personally I can't stand all the "vs." type threads and arguments. Why does it always have to be either/or? Why not both/everything?
Like many here I started out listening to the guitar only. But I started playing at dance classes (with someone else), and then started listening to cante recordings because I needed to learn how to play compas strumming for accompanying dance classes, and cante recordings had a lot more of it than solo guitar recordings.
It didn't take long for me to love cante as much as guitar, and my disc "collection" (for want of a better word, i'm not really a collector, just like music and insatiably curious) is probably 50-50 split.
The first time I played at all with a singer I knew how to strum compas from playing for dance classes, so i strummed some compas and he sang. Then he stopped singing and I stopped playing. Then, (with a flourish of his hand) he said something like: "now you play takatakataka..." to indicate I should play a falseta while he took a rest. I didn't have a falseta, and we didn't continue. After that I vowed to learn some technique and some falsetas.
Good accompanists seem to know a few falsetas. It may not be the most important part of accompanying. It may be possible to accompany without falsetas, or with very few, or with very simple falsetas. But the soloists I like to listen to all seem to do or have done a lot of accompanying. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.
RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Well boys, looks like we have sacrificed another flamenco virgin on the rocks of Foro Reef.
This whole thing is BS. Yeah Javier Conde is such a moron trying to keep the tradition of Sabicas alive. What a moron. And what a weak right hand. Oh and what about that Grisha. What a weak-handed moron too. Geez. I'm much more of an accompanist than anything else. But I also find no need to diss those who focus on other things. I would be so lucky to have the playing skills (and strength!) of a Grisha. This is all just BS. Count me out.
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I have seen it lots of times. 
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