Camarón

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Camarón

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Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

Camarón

Cante nerds! Is this as well-informed as it seems to be?

http://idiom.ucsd.edu/~moore/flamenco/camaron.htm

It seems sound but the conclusion is a bit milky. I'd have preferred him to name the guilty, i.e. tell us with whom he is taking issue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 10:49:28

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Camarón (in reply to Brendan)

Looking at the HTML this page was created some 20 years ago. Just saying.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 11:26:45

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Camarón (in reply to Brendan)

Very few foreigners ever get to understand flamenco like John Moore. Everything he says in this article is correct.

Perhaps he does not go far enough: Leyendas del Tiempo marked two things: Firstly, Camarón´s contact with the Madrid musical movement which was a result of the cultural liberation after the death of Franco, and spawned such mediocrities as Alaska.

Secondly Camaron fell into the hands of Ricardo Pachon and Antonio Humanes, who were more interested in making money than making flamenco.

It is notable that the records became more and more pop, while Camaron´s public performances with Tomatito were always tradicional flamenco (vis Nuestro Camarón).

Indeed it is thought that Camaron turned up to record these records to find that all the tracks had been previously recorded and the guide cante had been laid down by Pepe de Lucía.

Camarón, being a genius, only had to listen twice before recording his unique style of cante.

John is not taking issue with anybody.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 15:21:26

Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Camarón (in reply to Escribano)

Ah yes and the references stop at 1995. Ahem. That'll teach me. I had a date filter on Google scholar (after 2017) but evidently it doesn't work for HTML pages like this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 16:07:53

Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Camarón (in reply to Morante)

Thanks Morente, that's exactly the kind of contextualisation I was hoping for.

Moore does spend his concluding section rebutting charges that have been laid at Camarón's door, so in that sense he was taking issue with whoever it was who made those complaints. But this is not important.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 16:12:14

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Camarón (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

I had a date filter on Google scholar (after 2017) but evidently it doesn't work for HTML pages like this.

Probably because there is no date meta-data. It appears to have been written in Wordperfect on a PC running Windows NT and uploaded with Netscape Communicator (Netscape 4). That is consistent with around 1997.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 16:48:28

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Camarón (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Probably because there is no date meta-data. It appears to have been written in Wordperfect on a PC running Windows NT and uploaded with Netscape Communicator (Netscape 4). That is consistent with around 1997.

All the best operating systems are dead

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 19:20:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Camarón (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Indeed it is thought that Camaron turned up to record these records to find that all the tracks had been previously recorded and the guide cante had been laid down by Pepe de Lucía.

At this day and age, no need to dance around the fact that the guy was a drug addict and might have needed a little help in the studio since time=$ after all. Many fans consider those last recordings to be his best after all.

Here you can see him getting coached on sevillanas by Isidro...I am sure he couldn't learn weird letras in 2 hearings or whatever nonsense

Throughout early part of interviews but good spot at 1:46 and 7:20:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2017 22:50:53

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Camarón (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Very few foreigners ever get to understand flamenco like John Moore.

Is this the John Moore that used to live in the Bay Area, and was married (if I remember correctly) to the dancer Sara Olivar?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2017 17:48:23

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Camarón (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Is this the John Moore that used to live in the Bay Area, and was married (if I remember correctly) to the dancer Sara Olivar?

I think so. He used to bring a group of students to Cádiz every year and we became friends. I think he might have moved to Granada.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2017 17:54:27

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Camarón (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

Is this the John Moore that used to live in the Bay Area, and was married (if I remember correctly) to the dancer Sara Olivar?

I think so. He used to bring a group of students to Cádiz every year and we became friends. I think he might have moved to Granada.

I guess this must be the same John Moore who translated A Thousand and One Stories of Pericon de Cadiz.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1618790021/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504551394&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=john+moore+flamenco&dpPl=1&dpID=51v4Ahx3bAL&ref=plSrch
Quite tempted to get a copy now having read that Cameron article.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2017 18:58:31

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Camarón (in reply to Morante)

Here’s a photo from 1987: it’s a Flamenco Society performance at the Sun Gallery in Hayward, California. L to R:

Roberto Zamora, Luis Ángel, Anita Sheer, Solomón, John Moore, Alicia, Ricardo Orellana.

Luis and Anita were the founders of the Society.