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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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 RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hello Ricardo,
There is a bit of confusion here. The "width of the wolf note'' should probably read "the width of the resonance affecting the note---or notes".
The classical that I'm doing final voicing on right now has three strong resonances right around the notes at the 7th through the 10th fret of the first string. Those resonances are simply places where the sound box likes to vibrate. They are close enough together that they constitute a really "wide wolf note", that will affect two or three notes.
Those resonances left where they are, and as strong as they are, the notes played at those frets of the first string are likely to give most of their energy at once, and not have much sustain. A good player can certainly compensate to some extent by playing those notes harder, but that makes the guitar seem unresponsive, and hard to play.
In a quick passage the effect is not so noticeable, but in a slow one it really is---you only get to play the note once, and after that it's the guitar's job to keep the note ringing on.
So what do I do about those strong resonances at those frequencies in the body of this guitar? That's what I'm trying to figure out (;->)... Fortunately I still have some options as the back is only taped on, not glued on, and I can take it off and shave down braces, beef them up or whatever.
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jul. 15 2017 18:43:34
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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.. Fortunately I still have some options as the back is only taped on, not glued on, and I can take it off and shave down braces, beef them up or whatever....................
Brian, I've been reading your posts with interest and it seems to me that you are using a technique that arch top builders frequently use by allowing access to the top for slight adjustments to improve tone.
But I've found that once you set the pattern in its place as a workable solution, then every time you make a pattern adjustment you will sometimes have to reset the tone by fine tuning.
However, once the pattern is set where you want it, then doing small polishing on the struts to balance the tone, causes very little work in bringing in total harmony.
I try and set the top's thickness first to where there is very little problem with balance; dead notes, then fine tune the rest with strut polishing, which sets in tonal capacity and such.
Arcangel Fernandez used to do this with using course sea salt on his wet finger to rub the braces in certain areas; sort of what we call bending the notes with playing, he would bend the tone by this technique.
Personally, I use 600 wet and dry sandpaper.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 15 2017 19:20:23
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hello Tom and Konstantin,
Well Tom, you and I and Gene Clark and David Rubio, and undoubtedly a bunch of other guitar makers were all radio hams in our youth---and Jack Bogdanovitch has an advanced degree in electrical engineering. So why am I the only one using my modest technical back ground to try to get a better understanding of how a guitar works?
I use an audio analysis program on my PC---still running Microsoft XP---an old freebie rock amplifier, a coil stolen from a relay, a freebie obsolete microphone, and a 50 cent magnet. And, oh yes, a couple of cheap loudspeakers. The Spectra Plus audio analysis program did cost money, but I would have mowed lawns to buy it, it's so useful.
With this setup I can get an accurate "acoustic fingerprint" of a guitar, or any part of a guitar. I use it to select top, back, fingerboard and bridge wood, to determine just what thickness to make a top or back, and to adjust sound-box resonances to where I want them during the final voicing process. And there is no math other than arithmetic involved---I'm just looking at graphs. What's not to like?
In the end it's how the player likes playing the instrument that matters, and so far I've been pretty lucky in that department.
I've got extensive notes, with photos, on all of these processes---in .pdf format---and will email them to anyone interested. Just email me directly so that I get your email address:
brian@lessonsinlutherie.com
And Tom, I find that I need to sand off about ten thousandths from the tops of fan braces to make any significant change in the positions of resonances. To get the air resonance to drop it's more like 50 thou off the main back brace. That's pretty slow going with salt or 600 grit.
Konstantin, the player has about a quarter tone of "wiggle room" to tune his guitar. Any further than that, and a different note is deadened by the resonance. Maybe I should read Robert's thesis now, since I'm right in the process of trying to solve the problems that he is talking about (:->)...
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jul. 15 2017 20:38:01
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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quote:
And Tom, I find that I need to sand off about ten thousandths from the tops of fan braces to make any significant change in the positions of resonances. To get the air resonance to drop it's more like 50 thou off the main back brace. That's pretty slow going with salt or 600 grit.
Brian,
It seems you aren't following what I said about this. First you design a plan that works, then you use the polishing technique, to set certain nuance.
Mark Usherovich, a classical builder who has been recently added to the GSI list of guitar makers, has learned this system and is doing well with it.
Sr Gonzales, a master builder in Spain, was told my technique, in part, and his response was that there were a handful of master builders that use something similar but that they would prefer that it not be published.
This is such a simple technique, once you learn it, but it does require certain practice for improvement.
Manuel Adalid, one of the principle owners of the Esteve Guitar Factory in Valencia Spain has taken my course and now employs this technique with his top of the line models. In the beginning, when Manuel saw one of his flamenco models with my added fine tuning, he was quite amazed.
This is not to say science doesn't play a role in assisting tonal improvement but that some of the older techniques still create a certain propio sello, (personal stamp), that science does not emulate.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 17 2017 13:22:06
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hello Tom and Stephen,
I have a great respect for builders that use other methods than mine to build guitars that are a thrill to play. That is my goal as well. I've not played a guitar made by either of you, but I'm sure that the instruments that you make are of the same class as the excellent ones that I have played by the likes of Lester DeVoe, Bob Ruck, Marcelo Barbero, Domingo Esteso etc...
I came to guitar making as a player of flamenco. I made my modest living for 20 years teaching flamenco playing. It's the thrill of playing a really good guitar that gets me out to the shop every morning before 8:00 AM, seven days a week, at age 77.
My goal is to be able to stay in compás in Bulerias! A close friend who was in Moron in the 1960's told me not to worry, that even Diego would get out of compás when there was no jaleo to keep him in!
Bulerias means "tricks" after all, and I think it was created by a bunch of flamencos that were bored with the same old 12 beat compás, and began moving accents around to try to trick the others into losing their place.
The methods of wood testing and voicing that I've worked out are working for me to produce guitars that I find thrilling to play. Some other players have had the same experience playing them. I've just now gotten serious about producing guitars for sale, and not many good players have played them, so the jury is still out on whether my instruments are in the same league with yours, and the other builders I mentioned.
What seems to keep happening is that people want to put me in the "science box". I certainly wouldn't call what I do "science". It's at most a bit of "reverse engineering". There is a lot of intuition involved in doing good science and engineering.
I have no doubt that my design, and my methods can be improved, and I will certainly have a look at anyone else's techniques---where do I find your information Tom? And yours Stephen?
As I've mentioned before, I can send you .pdf's of the photo illustrated notes on my wood testing and voicing methods. Just email me direct, so that I have your return address to use:
brian@lessonsinlutherie.com
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jul. 17 2017 15:43:36
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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quote:
. I've just now gotten serious about producing guitars for sale, and not many good players have played them, so the jury is still out on whether my instruments are in the same league with yours, and the other builders I mentioned.
Brian,
I'm sure by what you've already said, that you are in the big leagues. All I suggest is perhaps how you could eliminate some of your labor by using a technique, that by some builders recognition, takes you there faster.
This technique is not necessarily all inclusive by itself but something you can use with an already existing personal primary, as I do. You might call it the finishing touch. It deals with creating vowel tones and regulating mid range projection ratios, including bass function with depth control, etc.
All of this can strengthen a guitar's voice, adding certain projection from its mid-range to enhance performance. And BTW, I'm not the first builder to figure this out.
Perhaps you can pick up the rest on my threads.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 17 2017 18:03:43
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NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hello Tom,
Thanks for the compliment! I'm well out of the urban mainstream, so there are very few players that come through my shop, and I really don't have much perspective on how I'm doing.
I will look at your fine tuning techniques with interest, but it will have to wait until about mid August. I'm finishing up three instruments to be included in a videoing session at the end of July. Then I have a student in the first week of August, and in the days in between I'll be working to get the video, text and photos edited and arranged on my new website. Whew! I do hope there is life after all this!
I will have a total of nine instruments demonstrated on my new website. I don't think that it's possible to tell much from a recording of a guitar being played, but it's better than nothing.
I don't know if you recall that you and I had dinner with Richard Bruné and Bob Ruck at a GAL convention in either 1995 or 1997. A most enjoyable meal it was, too! I remember chiding you for being a Republican! Well, guess what, I've seen the light, and am voting Republican myself these days (;->)...
And also, that I grew up down in the Rio Grande Valley in Mission and McAllen. I moved to California in 1955 when I was 15, but I still think of Mission as "home".
Cheers,
Brian
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Date Jul. 17 2017 18:54:53
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Bad notes in classical guitars (in reply to NorCalluthier)
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I'm probably repeating myself, but...
I have played both classical and flamenco for years, having begun guitar as a flamenco player.
I have four classical guitars at the moment, and a couple of flamencas. If I were a pro I would probably stick with the '73 Romanillos for classical. It is the most even across all strings and up and down the fingerboard. I have never played a guitar that was perfectly even, but this one comes closest of the ones I have gotten familiar with. Plus it has a wide tonal range, and can produce very beautiful sounds. The drawbacks? It's not quite as loud as the loudest classicals I have (but it's certainly loud enough), and to get the good sounds and great variety of tone you have to be very, very precise with your right hand touch.
The classical guitar I play the most often is the newest one. It is loud, it has a thundering bass, the trebles can be piercing, playing one string can produce very noticeable resonances from others. I'm getting to where I can produce the tone qualities I want. They usually come at higher volume than on the other classicals I own. It's tremendous fun to play, but it has a dead spot right on a climactic note of one of my favorite pieces. Fortunately that dead spot has smoothed out over a bit more than a year's time, and seems to be continuing to smooth out as time goes on. I have learned to compensate for it a bit by shifting my attack on that note a little further toward the bridge. Maybe the dead spot will go away enough not to be particularly noticeable, in a reasonable length of time.
When I got the Romanillos it was 27 years old. Maybe it had dead spots in its youth that had smoothed out by the time I bought it? ¿Quien sabe?
Another guitar, built by a well known maker influenced by Romanillos, had no annoying dead spots when it was brand new. I really like it, but the Romanillos is capable of producing sounds I like better, when I am willing to put in the effort to get them.
"You pays your money, and you takes your choice."
RNJ
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Date Aug. 19 2017 22:39:48
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