RE: Questions about braces

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I played a Felipe V Conde whose top was about 3 mm thick and an old Conde whose top was about 2 mm.

I'm going to give away the biggest secret in Spanish-style guitar making here: A soundboard is not necessarily of uniform thickness; it may be thicker in some areas and thinner in others. So if your measurements of those tops were in one spot on each of them, you may not have a good idea of the way the they were thicknessed.

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www.edluthier.com
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 12:47:55

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I have some experience but it's good to point it out.
Anyway, in the book I mentioned the top thickness is taken in different spots.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 14:01:49

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Orange paint is more important.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 14:43:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I played a Felipe V Conde whose top was about 3 mm thick and an old Conde whose top was about 2 mm. My preference is for the design with a thinner top. I noticed that a thicker top often needs More time to warm up and to take out good overtones.
Again, they are all generalisations as it depends a lot from the density of the wood the young modulus, the doming, the bracing, the plantilla shape etc.

It's very interesting to compare the top thicknesses of historical guitars. A good reading is the last edition of "A collection of fine Spanish guitars" with the contribution of Richard Bruné

A repair made to my 1997 A26 revealed just the opposite, a fairly thin top compared to my 1973. At least in lower bout area.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 16:38:21

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Orange paint is more important.

Yes, by all means. LOL 55555, only because I know your dislike of Orange.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 19:54:59

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

Orange paint is more important.

At this stage I have just a couple of orange guitars left. By chance they are the guitars most people who see me playing ask me about.

@: Ricardo
I can tell you that my '64 Conde is around 2.4 mm on the lower bout and my '81 Conde is a little more than 2 while the Felipe V Conde of 2003 was around 3mm. Different projects, different plantillas and probably different hands.
At the end of day a good guitar is a good guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2017 20:05:51

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

what's your opinions about deep body resonance? good or bad idea / what ourpose do deep/high body resonances serve?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 10:09:01

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

what's your opinions about deep body resonance? good or bad idea / what ourpose do deep/high body resonances serve?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do I think it is necessary to have a deep body to get good sound? No.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 13:41:23

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Maybe you are referring to guitars with low pitched box air frequency.
The topic became more frequent since Julian Bream (and Miles Roberts) started mocking what he called the "G boxes" and praising guitars with low pitched air (under F#).
As you probably know this is mostly the case with classical historical guitars and tpically in the Torres style you reach E or D .

In my limited experience I can say I tried just a couple of very good flamenco guitars pitched at F#(my 81 Conde and a Gerundino). The most of my guitars are pitched at G diesis.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 15:06:59

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to jalalkun)

sound. the topic was discussed (last time) under the heading 'deep tuned guitars', i think. the best guitars i heard and played so far (which were not too many) were pitched very low (something between e and f). a few weeks ago i came along a conde a26 which was at a! also a good guitar, but a total different kind of horse. so, for my purposes (mostly private playing in not very big rooms) and liking, this seems to be an reasonable factor.
greetings,
ben

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 17:43:19

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to benros)

quote:

a conde a26 which was at a

My 2003 A26 has a resonance of A as well. As you say, a different kind of guitar.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 19:06:42

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

yes I meant the box air frequency/deep tuning. ethan i actually used to think that deep bodied guitars sound better, but i played a super slim '77 jose lopez bellido and it literally blew me away. so...got that rumor squared away

is it true that a deeper air frequency means less projection/less suited for "concert halls"? i've read that a lot across the foro but what's behind these statements? how does a guitar tuned at A differ from one tuned at say F?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2017 21:39:15

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Jajal, most people on the foro don't really know how to actually test to see what guitars happen to be tuned to. If you want to understand this stuff look up Alan Carruth's writing and website. Read his stuff, he's not a bull$$hitter, most people misunderstand or over work this topic.

I'm not saying people on the foro are not smart, but this is specific field and there are lots of ways to misinterpret what this stuff means. For example the main air resonance and the main top mode are two separate things. It's important to learn why from a person qualified to explain it the right way. I understand much of it but I don't consider myself qualified to teach it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 2:42:21

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

My 2003 A26 has a resonance of A as well. As you say, a different kind of guitar.
Rob

From G to A is quite normal even though usually the most flamenco guitars are in between.
"A" frequency means your guitar is stiff and the top of your guitar is likely thick 3 mm as the guitar I tried. The Air frequency is mostly determined by how stiff are the plates.
At some stage (after 2001?) Conde Felipe V made their tops thicker and the box frequency raised up.
When I tried my 81 Conde I was blown away by the quality of the sound (Ps. This is obviously just my opinion) and asked myself why they decided changed their product.

I too have a '74 José Bellido which I find particularly good: a thin and light guitar but the box frequency is at G flat.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 7:05:30

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen,

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Jajal

Jalal*

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I understand much of it but I don't consider myself qualified to teach it.

well when I look back at the way you explained the bracing "techniques" I doubt that you'd be not-qualified to teach it

guess I'll have a look at Alan Carruth's stuff!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi
I too have a '74 José Bellido which I find particularly good: a thin and light guitar but the box frequency is at G flat.

the bellido that I tried has a very short sustain, but such a crisp and full sound, I'm really starting to like blancas a lot

but Gb is still a whole step lower than what most factory guitars have (around G#). But then again, maybe it's the way they are put together that matters the most and not really the main frequency of the air blown out of the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 7:32:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

well when I look back at the way you explained the bracing "techniques" I doubt that you'd be not-qualified to teach it guess I'll have a look at Alan Carruth's stuff!

You can learn to make guitars by rote from a good teacher, you don't need that acoustics background to do it. But there are a of half-baked attempts at explaining it by people who don't understand it. They make it into a mish-mash of mystical bull$$it and confuse everyone. Then people who either build by common sense of received wisdom, ( people like Ethan or Anders, me- etc.) or by those who know the actual in depth knowledge of the tone generation systems have to always clean up the misconceptions that the general public get from crackpots.

My suggestion is to go to a primary source of that school of making and get the information presented by someone who is a pioneer in the field.

Alan often checks into the Delcamp Classical Forum and is generous enough to answer intelligent questions in public. Avail yourself of his knowledge. It's not my thing, but I have
great respect for his knowledge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 9:20:27

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

Gb is still a whole step lowe

My fault, I meant to write G#.
I find it kind of surprising as it is a very light guitar with paper thin sides, peones, light cedar bracing etc...
At the time José used to follow faithfully the model of his brother Manuel.

I agree with Stephen regarding Alan Carruth. If you like you can read also the Gore-Gillet book, which is really great if you are well into physics.
I'm not convinced it's so important given that people like Santos, Barbero, Reyes, Faustino or Romanillos could make great guitars without it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 9:24:28

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

The most important thing to understand about guitar making, IMO, is that a guitar is a holistic system, not just a bunch of individual parts or attributes.
It's easy to look at the bracing pattern and think that's where the magic is. It's easy to look at the air resonance and think that's what makes a good guitar, until you get proven otherwise.
If great guitars were the result of making easy, formulaic choices, then making great guitars would be easy, which it's not.

You can't understand fan bracing until you look at the bridge and the harmonic bars.
You can't understand the bridge and the harmonic bars until you look at the top doming and thickness.
You can't understand the top doming and thickness until you look at the back doming and thickness.

etc. etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 15:39:13

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Well written Andy...good common sense!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 18:19:12

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

The most important thing to understand about guitar making, IMO, is that a guitar is a holistic system, not just a bunch of individual parts or attributes.
It's easy to look at the bracing pattern and think that's where the magic is. It's easy to look at the air resonance and think that's what makes a good guitar, until you get proven otherwise.
If great guitars were the result of making easy, formulaic choices, then making great guitars would be easy, which it's not.

You can't understand fan bracing until you look at the bridge and the harmonic bars.
You can't understand the bridge and the harmonic bars until you look at the top doming and thickness.
You can't understand the top doming and thickness until you look at the back doming and thickness.

etc. etc.

So where do you start to begin to understand these things without any experience building and not going through a lot of trial and error?

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 21:28:03

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes
So where do you start to begin to understand these things without any experience building and not going through a lot of trial and error?

A good place to start is learning basic woodworking. My father helped me get started with household renovations, cabinet work and general construction. It's amazing how many of these basic skills easily transfer to guitar making. The fact is that anyone who wants to build guitars nowadays has the internet with its vast knowledge base unlike most of us old timers who had to do it by "trial and error" accent on the "error" part. It's not an endeavor for the faint of heart and you'll never make any money even if you get "known".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 23:15:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Thanks John. Also your comment earlier about the pointed brace shape giving maximum stiffness to weight is well taken, although it's interesting how some builders have opted for rounded tops.

quote:

So where do you start to begin to understand these things without any experience building and not going through a lot of trial and error?

Honestly, you can pick up a lot of information by reading and asking questions, but I don't know if you can ever fully understand the relevance of that information without putting things into practice for yourself.

When you're making guitars, each one is different and its own animal in some way. Different woods, different player preferences, etc. and you have to have a tremendous bag of tricks that you can pull out at different times in order to push that guitar into its "sweet spot". I believe that with every set of wood and acoustic parameters, there is an optimal way to build that into the guitar that you want. It's like focusing a camera. There is ONE exact spot where the object you're shooting is perfectly in focus.
The difference is that with guitar making you don't have immediate feedback on the focus and you can't compare it to what it could have been. So it's easy to let it get a little bit fuzzy and never even know that it could have been better if you had done something slightly differently. You left the back a little too thick, the bridge a little too light for the top, etc. so the sound you wanted is slightly out of focus, although somebody else might like the guitar just fine but it's all about what you are shooting for.
And it's really, really hard because there are a million variables. But I think that knowing how to treat each guitar as a unique entity, and how to adjust your approach to each piece of wood that goes into that guitar to bring them together as a whole, is what separates out the best builders.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2017 23:54:39

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Don't be afraid to make mistakes. You're going to make hundreds of mistakes. Just realize that the fear of failure is crippling and holds you back. Build something with the information you can find and then show it to a good builder and ask for a constructive criticism.

Then take the crit into thought and make another guitar and fix the parts that were lacking in number 1. If you have a good coach by # 4 or 5 you should be making guitars that will make you happy to play. Granted you pay attention to the coach.

Andy hits on this: it's like baseball, learn the fundementals. Don't get strung out in esoteric theories or head trips. Study as many nice older Spanish guitars as you can.

Learn to draft plans in addition to buying plans.

Beware of ' analysis paralysis' : rather than ruminate on one guitar for a year, start more than one. Practice Making a neck with scrap wood a few times. Making the neck is the starting point. And make bridges start by making necks and bridges. Make a few bridges, when you master the fine filing, knife cutting clean champfers and fitting the saddle in the slot, and drilling the holes, your ready to go. The bridge is a microcosm of skill display needed to manage other detail work. Bridge blanks are inexpensive and you can buy wood for ten of them and cut the blanks yourself. You can afford to ruin 5 of them while you learn to make them.

Make some necks and bridges and then ask for a critique on them. Then make more. If you make a neck with kiln dried fir from the lumber yard you can abandon it half way through if you don't like where it goes. Then make another and self correct. Then compare #1 attempt with #2 or #3 and you will instantly see your skill level rise.

Working the neck with common wood will make the process less precious and stressful, and you will learn the very important moves and method for things like clamping up scarf joints and cutting the transition between headstock and neck shaft.

Fundementals.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2017 1:00:22

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to Cervantes)

Trial and error, you can read about how to do listen to advice, but it's not until you start building you understand the holistic process and the great thing is you are always learning :).

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2017 10:04:57

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Questions about braces (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I like the thought that guitar building is a holistic system. after all, all the components need to work together to make the sound and be comfortable while playing. that's why they will need to be calibrated to each other. yeah I can read a lot about how to make guitars and all the challenges that come with it, but I won't really know before I start working on it. Trial and error. Weird enough, I'm not that afraid of making mistakes, that's how people learn to do stuff the right way. thank you all for your contribution, this thread has become a gold mine!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2017 8:18:45