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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Elites are a good thing because they hold a special knowledge of skill for the betterment of culture and society. There are those who try to manipulate that mastery into a pejorative offense move and play it as an "us vs. them" situation. That is dangerous because it undermines true elites who have made important accomplishments, who's opinions should be heard and not jammed.
There has been a long history in the United States of anti-intellectualism and anti-elitism. It is best summed up by the ignoramus who when faced with someone of real accomplishment in the arts, science, diplomacy or any other endeavor that requires hard work and effort to master, dismisses it with the phrase, "He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like me." As if he is the equal to an Einstein, a de Kooning, a Kissinger, or a Paco de Lucia because they, too, put their pants on one leg at a time.
It has gotten worse over the last 20 years as overwrought "multiculturalism" has become the coin of the realm. You are considered "elitist" (meant to be pejorative in this case) if you question some of the more outlandish claims made on behalf of minority history in a bid to make them "feel good about themselves." For example, so-called "Afro-centric" studies often makes the claim that Ancient Egypt was a "Black civilization," and even that Cleopatra was a "Black Queen." This is utter nonsense. Cleopatra was a Ptolemy, a Macedonian Greek who ruled Egypt.
Another egregious example is one New York school district that in the 1990s mandated the teaching that one of two main sources of ideas for the United States Constitution was the organizing pact of the Iroquois Indian nation. This is pure twaddle. But it is supposed to make Indians "feel good about themselves," regardless of its complete distortion of history. Of course, to challenge this twaddle is to demonstrate that one is "elitist," in thrall to "Dead White Males."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2017 16:30:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Actually, the most famous flamenco dancer (well, aside from Carmen Amaya--or are non-aficionados unaware of her anyway?) is, perhaps, an Italian-American born in New York, namely Jose Greco. Funny world.
In fact, a teen-aged Paco de Lucia toured with the Jose Greco Flamenco Dance Troupe in the early sixties. It was around 1963-64, that Paco met both Sabicas and Mario Escudero in New York City while with Jose Greco. Both, of course became something of early mentors to Paco.
Bill
There is a documentary that I was featured in a few years ago called "Sobre Las Olas"....originally the woman who started the project had simply wanted to tell the story of flamenco artists that reside in USA, but along the way the narrative kept coming back to Jose Greco and his influence. So it turns out being a documentary about Greco more than anything else. Myself and only a few others had not a word to say about Greco. I found it quite amusing after all that when La Busqueda came out soon after and PDL describes Greco as a good looking Italian guy that played on all the cliches of spain....in one casual yet truthful statement, basically made a joke out of the entire project I was a part of. 
When one's entire artistic existence stands upon such fragile bases, it is obvious to see why egos need to be constructed to protect the foundations.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 22 2017 17:26:49
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
Actually, the most famous flamenco dancer (well, aside from Carmen Amaya--or are non-aficionados unaware of her anyway?) is, perhaps, an Italian-American born in New York, namely Jose Greco. Funny world.
I saw Carmen Amaya in 1962 at the Village Gate in New York City. You didn't have to be an aficionado to know she was something very special. At least I didn't consider myself an aficionado at the time. I didn't like cante. I barely knew the difference between soleares, alegrias, rosas...
All the same compas, right? Well not exactly...
My Army buddy Blackie Acosta (from East L.A.) and I got to the Gate early to get a front row table. About ten minutes before the show started, Sabicas showed up at the next table with the "Reserved" sign on it. He had in tow the usual entourage of young guitar players, but none of the flashy blondes he usually had on his arm--showing respect to Carmen, I guess.
Carmen came out in bata de cola and danced a very slow soleares. She looked old and moved slowly, but you couldn't take your eyes off her. There were rousing cheers and applause as she made her exit.
After a lightning costume change she came back out in pants, boots, and a bolero jacket. She danced a bulerias at blinding speed that rattled everybody's teeth. So much for looking old.
She tore the house down until intermission. Blackie and I had on our good suits and good opinions of ourselves, so we went backstage to meet some of the beautiful young gitanas in the cuadro. We didn't know they were all part of Carmen's family. The girls wouldn't even make eye contact with us. When the men started taking out some really impressive switchblades to clean their fingernails, we decided to head back to our table.
Sabicas, always friendly and congenial, recognized us as regulars at the club Zambra where he showed up for after hours juergas, so he smiled and waved, then asked us how we did with the girls.
Fifty-five years later I still remember Carmen's performance as one of the greatest of any kind I ever saw.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 23 2017 6:42:48
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Bulerias2005
Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I don't see anything wrong with "elitism" when we're talking about talented, passionate folks protecting an art form that they hold near and dear, preserving it as best they can for following generations and making sure that said generations are 'worthy' so to speak of inheriting it. I am no stranger to harsher teaching methods -- my first teacher is emblematic of a Russian pedagogue. But there also exists a faux-elitism in pockets of talent-deprived areas where self-appointed patriarchs promote a monopoly of ignorance. The problem there is that issues like respect for elders are trumpeted at the expense of objectivity re: what constitutes quality art, whereby said patriarchs are considered paragons of an art form that they actually know very little about, yet are empowered to insist that all ways lead to/through them... when there is an active suffocation of young talent going on, it might be expedient for 'established' artists to point fingers and say that the issue has to do with a lack of respect for elders... at some point, however, I realized that the best thing to do regarding this sort of elitism is to just let things play out... such situations are inherently unsustainable, and eventually a conscious suppression of talent can and will turn into a complete vacuum of talent. Which, hopefully, means that a talented/passionate "elitist" -- probably from another community -- can come in and turn things around!
Edit - To be clear, I am *not* referring to Ricardo's post with my comment re: lack of respect for elders. Your point Ricardo is excellent and completely makes sense... I'm referring more I guess to my own experiences, which have a different context.
_____________________________
Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
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Date Jun. 23 2017 14:41:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to payaso)
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quote:
The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority. There’s surely lots of that in Flamenco, as in any other art, or indeed any other walk of life.
You have just described a "faux" elitism that is common among the less-accomplished and exhibited as a superficial means to mask their inadequacies and project a false sense of superiority. The term is also used by the less-accomplished to disparage those who truly are among the elite due to having mastered a difficult field of endeavor through hard work and diligence.
To be among the "elite," properly defined as having mastered a field through diligent application, study, and hard work, is nothing to be ashamed of. It sets one apart from the crowd and generally suggests that one has something to offer humanity that is worthwhile, whether it be in music, literature, art, science, foreign affairs, or any other field of human endeavor. We should be thankful for and honor the truly elite, and we should have nothing but contempt for the "faux" elite, i.e., the second and third-rate types who fraudulently present themselves as "elite," and who disparage the truly elite out of resentment and envy.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 24 2017 19:13:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
quote: The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority.
that sounds like snobbery.
It is snobbery, and it is the "faux" elitism as the term is used by those who cannot tell the difference between snobbery and the truly elite. As to "intimations of superiority," it is a sense of superiority that is totally unearned by poseurs who are elite "wannabes.".
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 26 2017 13:15:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Elitism by definition is the belief that Elites should be in charge of organizations. A person who is elite for some reason is not actually an elitist. Two different things.
The elitist the person who believes all should be subject to the rule of elites. An elite person might think Uncle Charlie who slings hash and eggs at the corner diner is better at running things.
Correct as far as it goes. I would broaden the definition, however, to go beyond the belief that elites should "be in charge of organizations" or that all should be "subject to the rule of elites." Elitism to me is the recognition that there are individuals who through hard work, diligence, and application have attained mastery in their chosen fields of endeavor, a mastery that is recognized as being above and beyond the average person's ability in that field.
I have never understood why "elitism" has taken on such a pejorative caste in American society. I tend to chalk it up to the American ideal of "egalitarianism" as being the supreme virtue, even if it hasn't been fully realized; the idea that one person is as good as another. That should be the ideal under the law, the justice system, and opportunity (as opposed to outcome), but it is a recipe for disaster when it comes to science, engineering, literature, art, music, foreign affairs, and any number of other endeavors that require specialized knowledge.
As I mentioned in a post above, I believe Robert Hughes nailed it when he described himself as an "elitist."
"I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 26 2017 16:30:33
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I think in the US elite, elitist, and elitism serve different definitions, and there are negative connotations, no doubt. The American culture and society gives varying and complex meanings to elite. There in an implication of racial elitism and the racially elite. It also depends on which culture you are from and whether or not a certain situation takes on a good or bad meaning.
Last winter I met with a former professor who after not having seen him for many years caught me up on his family and life. He mentioned to me his now grown up son's partner, is a woman who is among the elite of Jazz musicians in NYC. As we ate lunch and talked details he dropped into our conversation reminded me of just how elite he actually is, and how he downplays his elitist academic and artistic circles. He's African American and had no problem using elite or being elite in any cultural context. In a racial context he might I speculate, as I had two semesters of his history classes I know a bit about his thinking, give another meaning to elitism in the context of race.
Our usage, at least among the verbally gifted elite is still vital, multi-dimensional and multivalent. And highly dependent on context.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 26 2017 22:45:18
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