Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equal Temperament problems

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equal Te...

We've been through all this before, and I'm not suggesting anyone do what he suggests, however the demonstration here is really nice because he clearly shows how overtone harmonic support works. It's 7 minutes long and he is going to suggest a fix for the overtone inaccuracies of equal temperament, but wait just listen to the demonstration of adjusted and unadjusted overtone support.

I think this is a good illustration of the issues of equal temperament and mainly post it here for the benefit of those players who are new and have questions about why this problem exists.

I'm not suggesting any fixes in particular, but I like his breakdown of the situation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 2:57:05

jalalkun

Posts: 276
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From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

I love this guy. The first time I watched this video it became clear to me why I de-tune my B-string a little bit when playing an A major chord because it otherwise would sound so odd. He has a guitar with movable frets to play microtonal music AND keep the timbre of a fretted guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 11:20:08

Erik van Goch

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Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun

He has a guitar with movable frets to play microtonal music AND keep the timbre of a fretted guitar.

We met at Codarts in Rotterdam a couple of years ago were he gave a lovely demonstration of his 8 string microtonal guitar and allowed us to play it. I loved the instrument as well as the traditional music he played on it. Each fret can be placed wherever you want leaving you a whole variety of choices from "normal setup" up to settings that allow one to play microtonic music of various kinds. Their traditional music include notes not used in western music and inbetween e and f they distinguish 4 or even 5 "in between" notes that can be covered by adding 1 or more in-between frets. My father played soleares on this kind of instrument once with a slightly altered F which gave it the ultimate flamenco sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 12:17:51

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Calling it microtonal is not quite correct. What's going on is that he's intonating for certain keys. Microtonal systems are a different animal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 12:36:06

Erik van Goch

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Calling it microtonal is not quite correct. What's going on is that he's intonating for certain keys. Microtonal systems are a different animal.

That was clear to both Jalal and me but Tolgahan Çoğulualso (the one playing in your video) also owns a lovely microtonal guitar, which enables one to intone normal fretting as well as to pay microtonal music, so mentioning that kind of instrument seemed a nice adding to your post, especially since microtonal instruments might benefit/inspire (future) flamenco players as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 12:42:59

Joan Maher

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

There's another variation called "true temperament" here are some fingerboards CNC-routed :( not my thing but maybe of interest?

http://www.truetemperament.com/fingerboards/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 13:44:10

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Their traditional music include notes not used in western music and inbetween e and f they distinguish 4 or even 5 "in between" notes that can be covered by adding 1 or more in-between frets.

Arabic music has, compared to the equally tempered two notes per whole step, four notes per whole step, which means our music has quarter-steps. Turkish music however does have NINE notes per whole step. These steps are called comma (like the symbol). I'd love to play around with this kind of instrument.

Being able to press the frets wherever you want into the fretboard and allowing you to play those notes (and ultimately playing maqam music - and additionally other temperament systems) makes the guitar microtonal (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, one can leave out all the work of routing the fretboard and just play fretless, but then the guitar would sound different.

These true temperament frets are actually a really nice idea, but would it be possible to capo that baby up? cuz then you'd need the corrections from the first fret on

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 15:39:39

Erik van Goch

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun
Turkish music however does have NINE notes per whole step. These steps are called comma (like the symbol). I'd love to play around with this kind of instrument.

During his demonstration he added 4 or 5 extra frets between e and f and dared me to try it. Distinguishing all the pitch nuances already turned out to be quite difficult for my untrained ears but pressing them wasn't that easy either since you hardly have room to place a partial finger or a nail in between some of those narrow fret spacings. Not sure if it was just to demonstrate the commas or that it was actually used like that in real playing (i assume a piece generally include only a limited selection of these commas in any given situation). 'dd love to try one myself and/or to try one of those "true temperament" guitars mentioned by Joan (which probably have the same problem concerning the use of capo, which at home i never use myself other then for ear playing).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 17:29:10

Piwin

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Ah the great equalizer. It's funny to me that I still hear people talking about which key is "sad" or "happy" or "bright", etc. These discussions make no sense in equal temperament. They sure made a lot of sense before it though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 17:58:13

jalalkun

Posts: 276
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From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

since there is half a step between e and f, you can put 4 or 5 frets into this section of the fretboard to play the commas. i guess it was only for demonstrational purposes, if you want to make use of it in a practical manner - just as you correctly assumed - you only have to place frets for the commas you need to play a certain maqam. makam/maqam/magham [whatever] is the concept of scales and modes in middle eastern music, just like there is the dorian mode, the aeolian, the phrygian, the harmonic minor/major mode, there is a variety of maqams, differing not only in the scale progression from each other, but also in the base note. e.g. the maqam rast starts at a different note than the maqam saba. for the ease of playing (for not worrying about fret wire being in the way) fretless is actually the best way to go for this kind of music, but it's interesting and kinda weird to listen to a rather western instrument playing these tunes

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 18:04:25

Erik van Goch

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun

for the ease of playing (for not worrying about fret wire being in the way) fretless is actually the best way to go for this kind of music, but it's interesting and kinda weird to listen to a rather western instrument playing these tunes

The fist video i included above happens to be a duet with a fretless guitar. In the past i aspired to ad a fretless acoustic (Guild) bass to my instrument collection but it never came to that (i played a whole bunch of instruments as a youngster).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 19:33:44

Ricardo

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Oh lord here we go again....trying to fix what ain't broken.....more crutches for the aurally challenged players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 21:17:30

jalalkun

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From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

The fist video i included above happens to be a duet with a fretless guitar. In the past i aspired to ad a fretless acoustic (Guild) bass to my instrument collection but it never came to that (i played a whole bunch of instruments as a youngster).

I listened to it, I love kara toprak. and I assume the improvisation towards the end was on the fretless guitar.
I find fretless basses to be so badads, i just love the was they look! I'd love to add oud and violin to my arsenal someday...see if this becomes reality someday

EDIT: I gave it a second listen, the fretless guy plays the melody all along

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2017 21:46:03

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Oh lord here we go again....trying to fix what ain't broken.....more crutches for the aurally challenged players.

Ricardo! Right on schedule. I guess I jumped the shark in the first post because I did not intend this to be a 'let's bitch on intonation' thread- sorry if I misled.

Yeah I was not suggesting a fix, I just liked the way the guy in the original video laid out the situation of overtone support with fixed frets, and I unconsciously compare that to bowed instrument overtone support which is 'ear intonated '. It's my preoccupation to compare instruments tuned in fifths with those tuned in forths. My thing is not that guitars are broken or incomplete intonation wise, but that I hear transposed music, from to fifths tuning to forths tuning, has overtone misplacements due to the overtone support of lack thereof on certain guitar notes. It's not a big deal to many people.

I should have known better, inevitably the talk in flamenco circles or context moves to micro intervals and sub diatonic divisions as related to non Western systems, that's not the discussion I was thinking about, although now that it's going have at it. I was thinking more about why we ended up with equal temperament and why I like it instead of trying to find work arounds.

Before I forget, several years ago I looked carefully at the 'True Temperament' system of fretting because a guitarist I know found it on the inter webbies and wanted to use it. I looked into how it works and decided I hope I never encounter a guitar with that craptastic arrangement of frets. The makers of the system were very unhelpful in communications and the set up is proprietary and if you have fingerboard repair and refrets issues you have to deal with the proprietary supply line. Thank you, but no thank you.

Another opinion, but here goes, I've read extensively about temperament in the Western diatonic system we use, partly to understand the reasons behind our modern guitar intonation system and partly just because I'm curious about how things historically come about. The clearest most concise book I've found is by Mark Lindley- Called 'Lutes. Viols and Temperament' https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Lutes_Viols_Temperaments.html?id=oXE5AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

There have been other books written since 1984, but they are not as straight forward to the point of dealing with the evolution of the diatonic system beginning in the late Renaissance and explaining how temperament on fretted instrument developed from there. This is salient because 'L,V and Temperament' states the case why equal temperament is a strong system for the guitar and traces the guitar lineage through the lute and instrument with movable gut frets. By examining the movable gut fretted instruments in the guitar lineage, the author compares each of the various temperament systems such as meantone, the fractions of comma, Gerle etc. to equal temperament. Anyway, highly recommended to give a proper background to the guitar since Torres.

There are some other books, one written more as entertainment in world history of tuning and temperament, and others that delve into the nitty gritty of early music performance, none of which really focus on the equal temperament issue as we need to understand vis a vis the contemporary guitars arrival at, or really historical rootedness in equal temperament. Lindley's book is predicated on the idea that equal temperament was more centrally understood as a solid system from the mid 16th century on and the peripheral excursions into meantone, fractional comma etc. temperaments were important developments that he shows functions of in musical examples. He contrasts the examples of unequal temperaments with that of equal temperament and a very clear picture is drawn in how each kind of fret placement system makes which scale degrees more tense or less tense. In this manner he explains why, for example, Mozart's cadence progressions sound more profound in a particular temperament. or why Monte Verdi's theorbo parts are tempered to work with his music. It sounds complicated, but it's not and sets the stage for Lindley's summation as to why we have equal temperament today.

Now back to your regularly scheduled "why equal temperament sucks" discussions.
Thank you, and good day sirs.

EDIT- Lutes Viols and Temperament is available through inter library loan or at your library, it's a seminal text on this subject. I used to borrow it out of Oakland Public Library

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 2:17:54

Piwin

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

"the evolution of the diatonic system beginning in the late Renaissance and explaining how temperament on fretted instrument developed from there"
So wait, I'll have to feign ignorance here. Actually that's a lie, I'll just have to be an actual ignoramus here,
but I thought equal temperament was first developed on keyboard instruments (harpsichord and the like) and fretted instruments followed suit. Did it start with fretted instruments then? Or perhaps a more general push towards equal temperament that happened more or less at the same time regardless of the instrument? Actually, don't waste your breath, I'll just buy/loan the book you suggested. Thanks for the suggestion!

In any event, my comment above wasn't intended to diss equal temperament. Quite the contrary, it sure solved a sh*tload of problems. Anything with actual modulation was basically out of the game before that, right?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 3:23:44

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Piwin, look at Music in the Age of the Renaissance by Leeman L. Perkins - ISBN 0393046087

Pages 969 to 992 chapter title Conceptualization of music in the Renaissance. The answer is there. That is the Bible on Renaissance theory Perkins is the first book to go to. Then his bibliographies.

Tonal centers did not develop overnight and distinctive keys meaning having tonal center developed incrementally. There was a such thing as modulation, but not in the format or formal sense that we hear it now. Also visit Juan Bermudo ' on playing the vihuela' published in Osuna in 1550s - search for online translation from the American Lute Society. It's free to download last I checked. Bermudo talks about equal temperament vs. other temperament on fretted string instruments vs portative organs and early keyboards.

So does Mark Lindley , and he cites Bermudo where applicable. Keyboard temperament is huge subject, and I can refer you to books that track the history but they are not super intrinsic to the particulars of fretted string instruments. You do get a better understanding of the general development of Western composition, it's deeply rooted in temperament as used in different regions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 4:14:36

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

It should also be said equal temperament existed and was simultaneously developed and understood outside the West, but I don't find that line of inquiry useful I terms of the Torres guitar ad it was derived from its direct lute / baroque guitar ancestors. The Chinese knew about equal temperament, but they did not develop the guitar, so comparison of the traditions and music systems are fun, but not to the point when trying to understand Western guitar development.

Really all I wanted to do was show how not all fret stops are supported by fully tuned overtone s

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 4:40:55

Joan Maher

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Yes I am happy to carry on building in Traditional fashion good old 660mm or should that be 650mm.. :)

I am building a fretless flamenco but that is just for myself as I bought an Oud in Morocco recently which has a wonderful sound and a large variation of tunings and am just curious of how a flamenco guitar will feel and play, first hand.

Thanks for the post Stephen enjoyed it..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 7:19:28

etta

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

If it is a real problem???? try a compensated nut; it will even help when using a capo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 15:52:42

Erik van Goch

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Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I just liked the way the guy in the original video laid out the situation of overtone support with fixed frets, and I unconsciously compare that to bowed instrument overtone support which is 'ear intonated '

A couple of years ago it was a huge surprise to me to find out violinist have their ears pitched on a slightly different intonation in the higher positions as i would favor to do myself for no other reason then that over time my ears were "corrupted" by the guitars settings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 16:36:14

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I just liked the way the guy in the original video laid out the situation of overtone support with fixed frets, and I unconsciously compare that to bowed instrument overtone support which is 'ear intonated '

A couple of years ago it was a huge surprise to me to find out violinist have their ears pitched on a slightly different intonation in the higher positions as i would favor to do myself for no other reason then that over time my ears were "corrupted" by the guitars settings.

Yes, it's called "playing out of tune".

I am not saying it's easy, but it's rare that I hear a violinist intonating perfectly. The Indian violinists (like L Shankar and his brother) are raised with different ears and are razor sharp precise IMO. As a teen I listened to this girl Midori, the first time I really studied violin music, and she was unusually good, so I thought that is how all violinists played.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 18:51:20

Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
I thought equal temperament was first developed on keyboard instruments (harpsichord and the like) and fretted instruments followed suit.

There was a stronger practical motivation for the development of equal temperament on fretted instruments. Here is a photo of the keyboard of an organ, whose construction was finished when Bach was 35 or 36 years old. The black keys are split, distinguishing g# from a-flat, etc. This enabled sweeter intervals in certain keys, and modulations among those keys. On a fretted instrument this approach would lead to serious overcrowding in the upper part of the fretboard, but it was perfectly practical on a keyboard.

Franz Caspar Schnitger was the son of his more famous father Arp. I'm not sure whether I have head any of Franz Caspar's instruments, but I have heard a few by Arp. In fact the Arkiv label series of the "complete" organ works of Bach, by Helmut Walcha, issued in the 1950s, was recorded on instruments by Arp Schnitger. I was impressed by the sweetness of these recordings long before I knew of the temperament.

Walcha was blind, and learned the works he was not already familiar with by listening to his wife play them on harpsichord, one contrapuntal line at a time. The organs he used for the set of LPs had 17 notes to the octave, like the one in the photo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2017 20:15:40

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes, it's called "playing out of tune". I am not saying it's easy, but it's rare that I hear a violinist intonating perfectly. The Indian violinists (like L Shankar and his brother) are raised with different ears and are razor sharp precise IMO. As a teen I listened to this girl Midori, the first time I really studied violin music, and she was unusually good, so I thought that is how all violinists played.

A few weeks of listening to Piatgorsky, Casals, Rostropovich, Daniil Shafran, Irvy Gitlin, Stern and a host of other cellists and violinists will disabuse you of the out of tune notion. For these great artists intonation is emotionally malleable...the point of Casals' intonation. Not out of tune.

Displaying your portative organ Richard?

Also, intonated nut, not the point of this post. A solution to a problem, but not this one.

This post is about listening. Now listen and get past the obvious conversation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 0:06:42

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Let us know where his intonation is faulty and not in service of expression/

Jackie's intonation is jacked up too, I suppose....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 0:24:37

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

This is an important recording of Quatour pour la Fin du Temps-

track out William Pleeth's bad intonation...it must be there somewhere. Heaven knows I can't find it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 0:28:56

Richard Jernigan

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Displaying your portative organ Richard?

....a sweeter organ than you will ever have.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 2:45:17

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

....a sweeter organ than you will ever have.

RNJ

I'd volley back, but the only direction that line of trading jest goes is to a Liberacean end.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 3:38:56

Piwin

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

@Richard Jernigan
@estebanana

intonated nuts and sweet portative organs. This place is a minefield of double-entendres!
Anyways, thanks for the explanations and reading recommendations, which I'll be sure to look up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 4:16:56

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

Tut, tut! If your organ gets pumped, don't be a bellows!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2017 4:51:25

estebanana

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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to estebanana)

On the topic of sweet old pegs:

A beautiful old violin peg I got from my first instrument making teacher Mr. Tenney back in 1980.

The wear marks on the grip I have been told by violin expert Ben Hebbert are signs the peg was turned with a wooden peg turning handle which tended to scar the pegs when used roughly.

It's become of of my few portable treasures.

I was asked for photos of this peg for a lecture that will be presented at Oberlin Violin conference next week. This happens to be a good extant peg which is very old and an example of an undercut grip, which precedes the famous Hill 'Heart pattern' grip. This peg is very likely 250 or more years old.