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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up?????   You are logged in as Guest
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rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

So dumb, I just needed to hear it in context......Not sure what's wrong with me that I couldn't hear the context to begin with......


The beard might be getting too long.

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 2:17:32
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to rombsix) 
No way! I trimmed it last week! I'm like Sampson! When I trim I lose cognitive ability!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 2:51:38
 
rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

No way! I trimmed it last week! I'm like Sampson! When I trim I lose cognitive ability!




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 4:00:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

no no no man...this is even worse than the first video!


just kidding. Good job! You got it!
Olé!

If you want to really nail the groove though, you should also do what Ricardo was suggesting and include a bit more 3 over 2 feel IMO.
Yeah I know, ironic after I was arguing that it wasn't 3 over 2. Anyways, you're definitely feeling the melody better.

@Erik van Goch
Yeah the AaaA/aaAa/AaaA/aaAa is also what I was suggesting, except I used numbers to make things more confusing
I think they're all approximations really. For me it's hard because I approach tientos already having music theory knowledge. It would be interesting to get the opinion of someone who grew up feeling tientos and only after had to apply the grid of music theory on to it.


yes, when referring to IT, we mean the original as played by the guy in spain original upload very first falseta. Yes there is lots of types of swing and stuff that works in tientos BUT!!! I just want to go on record, the original intent was as I described and what Erik first described, and not what Grisha (apparently) suggests nor what peter wrote nor played exactly.

What I mean simply is what Erik wrote there AaA/aaA/AaA/ as possible reality is simply incorrect, and what he said as strict 3:2 was absolutely correct, and further more the whole entire point of the phrasing and the way it feels against beats 2 and 4, the up beats which are both missing and not expressed from Peters metronome version where only 1 and 3 is heard as reference.

Ok just for the record.


And yes Lenador got the melody pretty good this time, could be tighter, but the compas thing he does could be better IMO. That too can be 12/8, very simply Bb on 1, 2 with rasgueados fast stabs to those beats, then ah-3 where ah is part of the 12/8 feel, 2-&-ah but you just hit "ah" the last triplet, but even the ah can be a fast rasgueado jab, but you express the swing 8th note, and finally count 4 can be G minor strum, so just that first measure then the A chord measure he did is fine. But the other thing he does, kind of trying to be funky he should reserve for just every once and a while. So basically what the guy does in the original again when singer sings Le Le Le Le. Etc

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 10:30:40
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin


@Erik van Goch
Yeah the AaaA/aaAa/AaaA/aaAa is also what I was suggesting, except I used numbers to make things more confusing
I think they're all approximations really.


In 1984 when my father saved Paco Peña's Mettmann course by becoming a translator between Paco (who can't write) and his Mettmann students (who couldn't ear play) Paco still believed Flamenco was the only music one could nor catch in written scores. My father explained to him the same basically counts for all music simply because we don't have the tools to annotate every nuance and quite often we don't need to. To demonstrate he played Paco various written scores from various styles and times, fist playing exactly what was written (which came out quite boring), then the way it is practiced in real life (which was much more nuanced and alive) and on top adding the kind of improvisations various styles demand on top of that written score. In short, aside of the written notes one has to have a severe knowledge of how that style of music has to be performed to give those notes the correct sound and swing.

If i annotate a piami tremolo i always annotate it as a fivelet. It's up to the player if he wants to play those 5 notes equally long or hold the bass note a bit longer. If a bass note and a treble melody note are played together (or a chord is strummed) i anotate the event as being happening simultaneously wile in reality the thump is played slightly before the beat and the treble melody note exactly on the beat (and that chord takes time to plug as well). If i play a melody in soleares with a whole series of triplets i often favor certain notes to sound a bit longer or being played syncopated on the expense of other notes and might end up playing not a single triplet in the end

***/***/*** becomes *-**/****~/*-**

I most probably do the same with that 3 over 2 thing, giving some notes a bit more time on the expense of 1 or more others, just to break the rhythm or emphasis a certain note. Grisha's variation seems to flirt a bit with Rumba (long long short) and my version flirts in a similar way with the triplet feeling of tientos. I guess in reality i end up somewere in between the 2 triplet variations i mentioned earlier.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 13:12:59
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to rombsix) 
quote:

could be tighter, but the compas thing he does could be better IMO

Si si, it was a proof of concept. Just sat down and hit record. A little awkward playing tientos compás to straight ticks. Will give it a couple days and post finished product with proper aire etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 15:10:43
 
Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
I agree. However it remains true that the written score was designed for a certain type of music and a full score can give you a lot of information on the music within that setting. I'd suggest that if playing exactly what is on the score makes the end result boring, then the score probably hasn't been written out properly. Of course even then some people don't feel that the score could fully convey what is supposed to be played, hence the contemporary attempts at designing new ways of writing down music. But the further you get from the kind of music the written score was designed for, then the harder it gets to represent that music accurately.
Next to that, maybe I'm making too much of it. Because there are many things that could be written out properly in flamenco but just aren't. Your example of the quintuplet tremolo for instance could very easily be written out with clarity. I'm not sure why they usually don't write it down more accurately. Maybe because they prefer to leave it completely to the interpretation of the player? Or because they're lazy? Dunno.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 17:05:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

I agree. However it remains true that the written score was designed for a certain type of music and a full score can give you a lot of information on the music within that setting. I'd suggest that if playing exactly what is on the score makes the end result boring, then the score probably hasn't been written out properly. Of course even then some people don't feel that the score could fully convey what is supposed to be played, hence the contemporary attempts at designing new ways of writing down music. But the further you get from the kind of music the written score was designed for, then the harder it gets to represent that music accurately.
Next to that, maybe I'm making too much of it. Because there are many things that could be written out properly in flamenco but just aren't. Your example of the quintuplet tremolo for instance could very easily be written out with clarity. I'm not sure why they usually don't write it down more accurately. Maybe because they prefer to leave it completely to the interpretation of the player? Or because they're lazy? Dunno.


I agree but to go to that detail can be extremely tedious. And in the end the type of person that could get all the nuance from a score of flamenco guitar say, can quite simply get all that stuff by ear anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 17:10:00
 
Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

And in the end the type of person that could get all the nuance from a score of flamenco guitar say, can quite simply get all that stuff by ear anyway.


Yeah that's true. It's pretty useless. My excuse for writing down a full detailed flamenco score from time to time is just that I'm a total nerd.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2017 17:26:17
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
Finally got this thanks to Grisha. Felt like I had to redeem myself here too. Not sure why it was so illusive to begin with, I think I just needed some context and Grisha helped with that for sure.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2018 4:25:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Finally got this thanks to Grisha. Felt like I had to redeem myself here too. Not sure why it was so illusive to begin with, I think I just needed some context and Grisha helped with that for sure.


Again ... it’s wrong (starting from the melody with fingers) cuz you are feeling division of 8 per beat and doing basically the rumba accent pattern.... 3+3+2,3+3+2 etc in fact it’s supposed to be division of 6 per beat and you should play the melody notes simply as every other one (“time marches on”)Now it’s not wrong to play it the way you are now in context of accompaniment but it’s not what the original guy was doing or intended.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2018 16:33:38
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to rombsix) 
Lenny,

For me, my ear is'nt as developped, so i work stuff out from videos. If you want material, plenty of it on youtube. here's the player in the vid you're working out doing some tasteful and doable stuff por tientos.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2018 17:25:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to rombsix) 
Ahhhhh I hope this falseta burns in hell!! Hahaha
Okay, so I didn’t play the original intent of the falseta but I did play something that works if I understand right. I played this for a students dance solo several times in front of Tanaka and the dance teacher so when they didn’t take issue I just concreted it in my head as done.
I haven’t listened to the original in ages so I suppose I’ll have to revisit this for the sake of brain practice and this time with for whom the bell tolls in my head. Lol

Thanks Henry! Too late for that show but I’m sure this won’t be the last time I play tientos.

EDIT: Just listened again, very obvious. Stand by, will post something later, maybe tonight.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2018 17:58:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador) 
Actually it would be a good exercise to play the melody both ways by repeating it, once your way and next as triplets so you can feel the difference and really control it. I recommend cutting your metronome click in half ( just clicking 1 and 3) so you learn to control the spaces between the clicks.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2018 14:17:00
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador) 
this one? Paco de Lucia with Camaron at 1:46



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2018 16:43:58
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