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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Casi, mejor no??
Real time foro help, can't beat the foro!
Not really i'm afraid. Actually what goes wrong in both videos is that you start of pretty well with the compas variation, but as soon as the falseta begins you play it more or less "twice as fast" as intended. Even worse you tend to play many notes shorter as intended and as a result end up playing 3 beats rather then 4 beats in every first half of each chain (3 beats, 4 beats/3 beats, 4 beats etc). The melody has to be played 3 notes over 2 beats and you tend to play 2 melody notes a beat, in short, your phrasing is indeed f**ked up.
Right now you are not ready yet to play this variation with a dancer nor are you able to play it with the metronome correctly (it's not the danser who is rushing, you are, skipping 1 beat out of 8 in the proces). You should be able to play 3 over 2 first (basically a triplet but not over 1 but over 2 beats). In the end the idea is to flow on beat 1 and 3 (leaving you quite a lot of freedom in-between) but before it comes to that you must master the "3 over 2" feeling. To me this was a pretty hard thing to master when i was a student at RC and tientos was considered to be one of the most difficult styles there were it comes to rhythmic interpretation (1 highly swinging compas variation we learned was so demanding all conservatory students but me ended up playing 3 beats rather then 4 which was the world upside down because normally i was the weakest link when it came to rhythmic interpretation).
To end with a more hopeful finding, you play that kind of "3 over 2" swing in the compas variation preceding the falseta so "all" you have to do is extend that feeling into the falseta which might be quite tricky without personal coaching and will take some time to settle (if you play the d,e,d and the c#,d,e part of the melody with the same "laziness" as the chords stokes preceding the falseta you're there).
I practiced the 3 over 2 beat by drumming the main beat with one hand on my knee wile the other hand drummed the 3 over 2 pulse on the other knee. The only time they match is on beat 1 and 3.
You can also tap the 1-2/3-4- pulse with your foot and play or sing ***/*** on top of it. If you execute both lines very strict your feet wil execute 2 even beats in each half compas and the voice added on top of it will execute 3 even beats in the same time frame. Your melody is the * part playing 3 notes over 2 beats.
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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Asi???? Excuse the missteps..... This feels really awkward to me.....
You are trying to play straight 8th notes and the original is crochet triplets against the beat. In other words he plays 3 notes in the space of your 4 notes per half note, or MUCH slower notes against a faster pulse than your version. Over counts 1,2 he plays 3 melody notes, over counts 3,4 he plays another 3 melody notes, and so on.
EDIT: Erik explained it correct, but it was on page 2 sorry.
ONe last thing might help....in Rock/Metal you have tunes in 12/8, where the drum still plays the 4/4 feel but guitar is like triplets...well it's like that kind of phrase but instead of the 8th note triples the melody is playing quarter notes and the snare hits on 2 and 4 are felt against the melody. Like the phrase at 1:57 and 2:05 and when he says "Time marches on..."here:
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
EDIT: Erik explained it correct, but it was on page 2 sorry.
The more support the better and Piwin, Ramzi's video of Paco Serrano demonstrating the 3 over 2 swing of tientos and Peter's "aim for 1 and 3" were heading in the same direction as well :-).
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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Can't play that video as well ("video not available") this counts for all video's posted by that person. Does anyone know why this is ? Is it possible that copy right protected material is automatically blocked in some parts of the world and free to watch in others ? I live in the Netherlands and have this problem quite often since a short wile.
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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Yes it's copyright issues, probably having to do with how royalty is generated by advertising. The song I link is For Whom the Bell Tolls by Metallica. A classic that I am quite certain Lenador is familiar with.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador)
Thanks a ton everyone, Jeez I must be way overthinking this. I'll post another video tonight. It's maddening because I've accompanied a tientos in front of two different pro dancers and a pro guitarist and it all went fine everyone was happy just not with this this stupid falseta lol 12850bd thanks that looks like that's going to help a lot, just gotta ditch work and get back to my guitar.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador)
@12850bd
Yes! Exactly that. That's what I was trying to say with the idea of "half-timing" the metronome. But it was much easier to say it how you did
I'm interested that you guys see the first part of tientos rhythm as 3 over 2. I broke it down in 16th notes because I feel that's closer to what's actually played. I guess both are approximations though.
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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
Can't play that video as well ("video not available") this counts for all video's posted by that person. Does anyone know why this is ? Is it possible that copy right protected material is automatically blocked in some parts of the world and free to watch in others ? I live in the Netherlands and have this problem quite often since a short wile.
That's exactly it Erik, I can't watch it too. You have to install a VPN add-on on your browser and turn it on (in this case with the virtual location in the USA) when you want to see blocked content like this. Turn it off after or you will have really slow internet.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
@12850bd
Yes! Exactly that. That's what I was trying to say with the idea of "half-timing" the metronome. But it was much easier to say it how you did
I'm interested that you guys see the first part of tientos rhythm as 3 over 2. I broke it down in 16th notes because I feel that's closer to what's actually played. I guess both are approximations though.
No, it's as I described 12/8 but the melody is the quarter notes in that meter. THe 2 and 4 have to be felt against the melody, other wise the melody is 6/4 which is not correct. Also straight 16th is not the subdivision, it's 12/8 or triplet division.
For whom the bell tolls should be CRYSTAL clear guys!
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Ricardo)
This is basically that tangos discussion all over again. I know breaking it down in 16th was just an approximation. But I don't hear what you're describing either. Whether you want to call it 3 over 2 or break it down in 12/8 like that part of the Metallica song, it implies that it's an even division of time between each note, which isn't the case in tientos IMHO. It would be a sort of swung 3 over 2, so in other words...an approximation. That's it not an even division between notes is fairly apparent in very slow tientos. Plus, if it's really 12/8 then we have the same issue than we had with tangos, i.e. the palmas are strictly binary (and not like For Whom the Bell Tolls where even if the drummer is adding a 4/4 "feel", what he's playing is still strictly 12/8). And that kind of polyrythm would sound very different than what tientos sounds like.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Oh my god wtf is wrong with me??? Listened to 12850bd's video closely at lunch and now hear exactly what I was doing. I guess because there's no compás/context before the falseta starts my brain just grabbed at some tempo/feel and really wanted to force this falseta into it. I knew it sounded wrong but I couldn't figure out exactly how. The tientos beat my brain was imposing on it was not the right tempo and made everything wonky. Jeez......so simple now. Will post after work and errands to try and regain some face.
I never count tientos it always (except this time) just feels for me and I've never gotten into trouble. Even played it for a singer from Sevilla and he was fine with what I was doing. I suppose if I had to count it I'd also describe it a bit like 12/8. When I go back and forth between the escobillas and letras I can see how the Metallica example fits.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin Whether you want to call it 3 over 2 or break it down in 12/8 like that part of the Metallica song, it implies that it's an even division of time between each note...
That is exactly it, though - they are evenly divided 3 notes of melody over two pulses, despite appearances. If you "forget" about the tientos pulse for a moment and just listen to the melody, you can hear that it fits very well as a straight-up waltzy 3/4 tune with "quarter" notes played on every waltz pulse: starts as - 2 3 |1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | etc. The 1 in every waltz measure is exactly where the 1 or the 3 is in the tientos measure, so if we go by the tientos 4/4 time signature, that makes one "waltz" measure fit into every 2 quarters of the tientos measure; hence the 3-over-2 description of Erik and Ricardo earlier.
P.S. Yes, there is some ornamentation here and there so not all melody notes fit as waltzy "quarter notes" but almost all of the melody is done as evenly divided notes that can easily be a waltz tune.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
That is exactly it, though
If you played the beginning of tientos as a 3 over 2, quarter-note triplets, or whatever, in a jazz formation, you would feel pretty lonely. Maybe in classical music it could pass for an accurate even rythm (yeah, cheap shot on classical musicians, but kind of true) The tientos rythm gives a strong sense of intent, of rushing towards that 3 than relaxing back down precisely because the time between each note is uneven. A precise 3 over 2 doesn't create that impression at all. There's no drive towards anything. That's also why I was recommending to use the metronome on only beats 1 and 3 so you can focus on getting that drive right. You can always stick to a precise 3 over 2 and fake it by playing slightly crescendo or something to create that impression of intent, but it really should be done just with the rythm IMO. There's a lot of freedom in tientos as long as you get the 1 and 3 and I can see why someone would use that idea of 3 over 2 as a useful crutch. But I disagree that there's anything exact about it. The same way I disagreed that tangos was a ternary form where you could basically play a shuffle. I can see why people would use that as an analogy, a crutch to get to the right feel of the music, but it doesn't fit exactly. Anyways, agree to disagree.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin)
I was actually referring only to this particular tientos video that started the thread - not to tientos as a palo in general - forgot to make this clear. I am not sure that this is how you interpreted it based on your response.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to kitarist)
OK, my bad. I can't argue about the original video since it doesn't seem that anyone of us in Europe can actually see it. I had to base it on Ramzi's interpretation of it, but I'm sure he nailed it
edit: just saw you added the original Ramzi. Thanks!
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
This is basically that tangos discussion all over again. I know breaking it down in 16th was just an approximation. But I don't hear what you're describing either. Whether you want to call it 3 over 2 or break it down in 12/8 like that part of the Metallica song, it implies that it's an even division of time between each note, which isn't the case in tientos IMHO. It would be a sort of swung 3 over 2, so in other words...an approximation. That's it not an even division between notes is fairly apparent in very slow tientos.
You are spot on with that remark and my statement it is "3 over 2" suggesting that devision is evenly divided over the 2 beats was indeed a bit simplistic (guess that's also what Grisha ment with his comment).
There are various ways one can divide those 3 notes over the 2 beats.
for a start let's divide each beat in imaginary triplets:
aaa/aaa/aaa/aaa
playing it in strict 3:2 would result in
AaA/aAa/AaA/aAa/
In reality however it might be played more like this:
AaA/aaA/AaA/aaA etc. 1...........3...............
which is still an approximation, especially since one is free to vary.
I believe Grisha's came to this devision
aaaa/aaaa /aaaa/aaaa AaaA/aaAa/AaaA/aaAa
which embeds a long long short nuance
(see his black and red version above which also includes the previous compas hosting the 2 melody notes preceding the 1... aaaa/aaaa/aaaA/aaAa which in my case would be aaa/aaa/aaA/aaA).
So we all seem to have beat 1 and 3 in common as the most important reference point (wile keeping an eye on 2 and 4) leaving a certain degree of freedom in between. If one likes one could play 1 and 3 ahead of the beat as well but i guess making sure the notes belonging to beat 1 and 3 are spot on is Leñardor's best option right now.
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RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Alright, here it is, I'm either redeemed or a complete moron! hahaha This is literally the third time I played it after picturing it in a different context, pretty sure that cleared it up. Little cleaning up to do and I was completely cold, just got home sat down, played it twice and hit record. I hope this at leasts proves my understanding of the phrase. I'll put more "funk" into it as I get more comfortable.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Leñador)
no no no man...this is even worse than the first video!
just kidding. Good job! You got it! Olé!
If you want to really nail the groove though, you should also do what Ricardo was suggesting and include a bit more 3 over 2 feel IMO. Yeah I know, ironic after I was arguing that it wasn't 3 over 2. Anyways, you're definitely feeling the melody better.
@Erik van Goch Yeah the AaaA/aaAa/AaaA/aaAa is also what I was suggesting, except I used numbers to make things more confusing I think they're all approximations really. For me it's hard because I approach tientos already having music theory knowledge. It would be interesting to get the opinion of someone who grew up feeling tientos and only after had to apply the grid of music theory on to it.
RE: Is this phrasing f**ked up????? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
I have tabbed this out and scanned it but when i try to upload it ...it says PDF not supported...so I converted to word...now it says word not supported. ??????
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