cites

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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

cites

Since our stock of Spanish Cedar is dwindling I've been shopping around. Unfortunately since Sp. Cedar is now on the cites list it's become too expensive to import neck planks from my old suppliers in Spain.

I've dealt with an exotic hardwood supplier called West Penn Hardwoods in the past and found them trustworthy so I bought about 30 board feet of flat sawn 8/4" boards. I'm delighted with the wood since I can saw 4/4" planks off the edge that are beautifully quartered. I laminate these with ebony strips to make the full width needed for the neck. I mention this as an option for anyone wanting to avoid the cites expense. If you like Sp. Cedar for neck wood its definitely time to stock up before the government outlaws it completely.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2016 18:22:45

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

Im sure you can get cedar from Africa that has no cites required? At least that's what think. We definitely don't have the same problems over here. I have about 30 of them in stock. I get them from my local shop David Dyke.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2016 18:35:59

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: cites (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I have heard that the quality of the African wood is poor compared to the wood from S. America. I suspect what I bought is not African Sp. Cedar since the boards are around 12" wide. This wood compares favorably with large planks I used to be able to buy at Gilmer Hardwoods in Portland, Oregon USA.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2016 20:16:09

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

West Penn has a location not far from me in Olean, NY. I've been there and it's pretty much wood heaven.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2016 0:25:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

I've sort of had that experience with it but saying that to make it cheaper I buy mixed quality and the process it accordingly. All the best stuff is for necks. The not so good stuff for Zoque and the rest is end blocks wedges and bars. It is slightly different in texture. It's still as soft as SA Cedar but feels a bit more splity and slightly more course grained. It is also lighter in colour. Everything else, as long as you get a good cut is equal. I do find a lot of it to be slightly more dense and it also has some nice flame in there too.

Saying that I also have a huge stock of SA cedar. Some huge 10 year old lumps 80 x 600 x 2800 came up for grabs so I bought 3 of them. The best bit is they are slab sawn so I only need to slice them off the side. I think I worked out that I have about 120 necks. I am lucky to live within an hours drive of 3 fairly large tone wood suppliers though.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2016 9:20:46

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

Since our stock of Spanish Cedar is dwindling I've been shopping around. Unfortunately since Sp. Cedar is now on the cites list it's become too expensive to import neck planks from my old suppliers in Spain.

I've dealt with an exotic hardwood supplier called West Penn Hardwoods in the past and found them trustworthy so I bought about 30 board feet of flat sawn 8/4" boards. I'm delighted with the wood since I can saw 4/4" planks off the edge that are beautifully quartered. I laminate these with ebony strips to make the full width needed for the neck. I mention this as an option for anyone wanting to avoid the cites expense. If you like Sp. Cedar for neck wood its definitely time to stock up before the government outlaws it completely.

Are you laminating them to make them stronger or because its not wide enough to make a neck out of one piece?
Or maybe the grain isn't the right direction to make a one piece neck, so you said cutting off the edges.
I don't see many flamenco guiitars with laminated necks.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2016 15:32:46

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: cites (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

Are you laminating them to make them stronger or because its not wide enough to make a neck out of one piece?
Or maybe the grain isn't the right direction to make a one piece neck, so you said cutting off the edges.
I don't see many flamenco guiitars with laminated necks.

There's little doubt that a laminated neck even without the ebony strips is more stable. Sawing wood into smaller pieces relieves inner stresses which can cause twisting or warping; however the reason for the procedure I described above is that it's now very difficult to find quartered lumber. Most of it is slab sawn (flat grain) so if you can get a thick enough piece of flat grained wood (8/4") you can take cuts off the edge and end up with quartered grain.

I doubt the grain orientation affects the strength of the neck appreciably but quartered, straight grain is much easier to carve and more attractive. I put the ebony strips in as a decoration. I'm sure it adds a bit of weight but doubt its enough to change the sound of the guitar or the balance. Surprisingly I've found ebony laminations to be easier to carve than rosewood but that may be due to variation in the individual pieces of wood. I have been using some fantastic Madagascar ebony scraps that were left over from a couple of logs I bought and resawed 20-30 years ago.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2016 18:20:13

David LaPlante

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 7 2016

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

It was my understanding that there was only one sub-species of Spanish cedar that was considered endangered and subject to CITES (?).

I have a fairly large supply of 8/4" (+ or -) Spanish cedar boards that are flatsawn and will make lovely laminated necks when "bookmatched" for grain and joined down the centerline (with or without a decorative strip).

I recently acquired quite a nice stock of 12/4" mahogany as well which I really like as it machines and drills more cleanly than cedar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2016 15:12:38

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: cites (in reply to David LaPlante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David LaPlante

It was my understanding that there was only one sub-species of Spanish cedar that was considered endangered and subject to CITES (?).

I have a fairly large supply of 8/4" (+ or -) Spanish cedar boards that are flatsawn and will make lovely laminated necks when "bookmatched" for grain and joined down the centerline (with or without a decorative strip).

I recently acquired quite a nice stock of 12/4" mahogany as well which I really like as it machines and drills more cleanly than cedar.

When I asked for a quote from Eve Armenteros (E.A.G.) he mentioned the extra charge for cites documentation and here is what's on the Madinter site:

Botanical name: Cedrela odorata

650x75<80x25mm

* There is an extra charge of 65€ / invoice and species for CITES documents for passing customs.

I'm certainly no expert on the cites regulations but it looks to me like I'll be paying an extra fee if I order outside the US. It's not a big problem since there are suppliers in the US and I prefer to deal locally however I do plan to stock up while its available just in case.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2016 17:23:04

David LaPlante

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 7 2016

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

It may well be because it is raw lumber and like mahogany, raw lumber is subject to CITES Appendix II regulations in terms of import/export.

There is one sub-species (forget which one) that, like Brazilian rosewood, falls under the stricter Appendix I.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2016 17:32:43

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: cites (in reply to jshelton5040)

Cedrela Odorata is appendix III on cites list, Cedrela Montana is not on the list. It seems to be the same tree but grows in higher altitude?
Any possible differences in these trees?

What about the cedrela odorata, is it basically banned from trading in raw lumber form internationally without cites papers, and if it's in a guitar or a cigar box, will it pass the customs hassle free?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2017 11:27:31