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RE: Raise a Glass to France!
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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As mentioned in my earlier post above, there is much more than just her anti-immigrant stance that places Marine le Pen on the Far Right.
Nevertheless, I think a distinction must be made between legal immigration in accordance with a nation's immigration law and regulations, and unchecked illegal immigration. I have always supported legal immigration to the United States, as I think it enhances the gene pool! And the U.S. has a very generous immigration system, taking in approximately one million legal immigrants annually. In the U.S., we don't need a "wall" on the southern border to check illegal immigration. All it would take would be implementation of the law already in place to heavily sanction employers of illegal immigrants and use of the "E-Verify" system that would catch illegals seeking employment via a name check against valid Social Security numbers. To fill the unskilled employment gap we could increase the visa numbers to legally bring in seasonal and other workers as field hands, harvesters, and other lower and unskilled labor as needed.
I do think that France, Italy, Germany and other European countries have to get a grip on the unchecked illegal migrants that come from everywhere, from Syria to a half dozen African countries. It is not Europe's responsibility to take them all in just because they show up on the shores of Italy and Greece, many of them are just seeking economic opportunity. In my opinion, Angela Merkel made a huge mistake when she publicly stated Germany would accept 800,000 Syrian and other illegal migrants in one fell swoop. Some are refugees under the United Nations definition, but many are simply fleeing poverty and harsh conditions. As much as possible, immigration should be via appropriate procedures and should allow for a process of integration and assimilation into the accepting country. And I strongly believe that immigrants have a responsibility to accept the social mores and culture of the host country. It is not the host country's responsibility to bend its social mores and culture to fit that of the immigrant who refuses to accept those of the host country.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 9 2017 15:54:24
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I think at this point everyone's open to suggestions. Most of the time, when I discuss immigration with people who feel a need for tighter restrictions on it, I hear a lot of complaints about how the situation was handled, and very little in terms of actual alternatives (I don't mean to say this would be the case with you. It's just a general observation on conversations I've had). In fact, most of the time, they realize that most of what they would suggest is already in place. Though there are some areas where it's impossible to know whether our leaders did enough or not, unless you have direct knowledge of what goes on in the back channels of diplomacy (I'm thinking here in terms of the agreements that apparently weren't reached with other regional powers around Syria).
I think Merkel chose the least damageable option since otherwise certain border countries who were already on the brink financially would have just been unable to bear the load. The moral outcome of just "shutting the doors" completely would also have just killed the European project in its very core. I don't think the EU would have survived such a decision. But well, these are just hypotheticals.
On the larger issue, beyond this one specific situation with the war in Syria, the only thing more that I think they should do aside from what it's already being done, is to try to reinforce police cooperation around the Mediterranean and make a serious attempt at tackling the organised crime that smuggles people in or leaves them to die in the middle of the sea if they can't make it. But that's probably a pipe dream. When you look at all the member states of Interpol and consider that their budget is under 100million dollars a year, it's surprising they get anything done.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date May 9 2017 16:27:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
The only reason we left [Indonesia] in the end was because we were forced by America....
Erik, you are probably aware of the Aceh War (1873-1903), in which the Dutch brutally attempted to subdue Aceh in northern Sumatra. An interesting element was the tangential involvement of the American Consul in Singapore who was approached by Acehnese emissaries. The war began as a result of the 1871 Anglo-Dutch Treaty of Sumatra, which, inter-alia, gave the Dutch a free hand in Aceh, which was then and still is today the most stridently Islamicized region in Indonesia (at that time the Dutch East Indies).
in early 1873 Acehnese emissaries approached the American Consul in Singapore about a possible Acehnese-American treaty, as they knew the Dutch, who now had a free hand, were likely to intervene. The Dutch became aware of the talks and used them as justification to intervene and begin bombardment of the Acehnese capital of Kutaraja (now Banda Aceh). The American Consul was sympathetic to the Acehnese proposal, but the State Department in Washington rejected it.
The war lasted for 30 years and was as brutal as they come. The Dutch brought in the noted anthropologist and expert on Islam Dr. Christiaan Snouck Hurgronje as the Principal Advisor to the Dutch colonial government on Islam and indigenous Indies matters. Snouck Hurgronje said nothing could be done to appease the Ulamas (religious leaders) and the only course of action was to crush them. This was done. In 1903 Sultan Tuanku Daud Syah surrendered and the Dutch military commander, Johannes Benedictus van Heutsz was appointed Governor General.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 9 2017 22:46:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
As much as possible, immigration should be via appropriate procedures and should allow for a process of integration and assimilation into the accepting country. And I strongly believe that immigrants have a responsibility to accept the social mores and culture of the host country. It is not the host country's responsibility to bend its social mores and culture to fit that of the immigrant who refuses to accept those of the host country.
I get what you're pointing out, and I have seen problems arise in CA due to the boundaries of cultures slamming into each other. One case was in Newark where the text books did not meet the morality requirements of a group on immigrant Indian parents and the raised the issue to school board who defended the choice of textbook. The parents became irate, more trouble..etc. a big waste of time money and litigation. The parents were prudes by Western educational standards, and they elected to move to the west, so too bad.
On the other hand, San Francisco has had a 'China Town" for more than one hundred fifty years that seems to exist with a kind of acceptable cultural autonomy. There is also Little Kabul in the Eaat Bay, which is the largest Afghan community outside the home country, there is Japan town in LA and the vast Viet community in Tempe Arizona, the Mung farmers in the Central Valley of CA I could go on and on. My idea is I don't want to see these folks forced become white Americans in the extreme; I want to see immigrants left to be autonomous as separate cultures within the greater culture and hold onto any identity via cultural means when it is not in unreasonable conflict legally or otherwise with the main culture.
I think we have observed that with cultures that have settled in the US and one thing to say to arriving culture is observe the cultures that are successful at adapting to the life of a new country. There is a lot of anti-immigrant blow back from white people that is just out right xenophobia, and that's also just too bad, for the xenophobes. They don't have a right to xenophobia, it's a sickness and they need help. Or to just shut up.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 10 2017 1:14:08
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
My idea is I don't want to see these folks forced become white Americans in the extreme; I want to see immigrants left to be autonomous as separate cultures within the greater culture and hold onto any identity via cultural means when it is not in unreasonable conflict legally or otherwise with the main culture.
I don't think that retaining one's national and ethnic culture is incompatible with integrating into the American culture writ large. In every American city of any size there is a "Pulaski Hall" where Poles celebrate Polish culture and holidays, while at the same time having assimilated into the larger American culture. The same holds true for Bulgarians, Ukrainians, and other East Europeans from Chicago to Phoenix. In Fairfax, Virginia there is a complex of Vietnamese restaurants, supermarkets, and jewelry shops called "Eden Center." They have two flags flying in the center: the old South Vietnamese flag flying alongside the American flag. They celebrate both American holidays and Vietnamese holidays, but they consider themselves very much Americans now. It is perfectly reasonable to celebrate one's historical, ethnic culture while embracing the American culture to which one belongs.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 10 2017 1:42:52
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