RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | Slow Motion Videos

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RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | Slow Motion Videos | More

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guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | Slow...

There's an interesting and contentious discussion of right hand technique for mostly classical guitar, but also flamenco (obviously there are similarities and differences) going on here--see link below. I'd be curious what some of the flamenco guitarists think about it. Please join in over there or talk about these issues here too. The slow motion analysis of concert guitarists has helped me begin to play again after years with focal dystonia in my right hand. Perhaps it will help others as well.

If link doesn't work, then google search:
Right Hand Technique & Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80875&start=990

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 18:07:07

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

Welcome to the foro.
I think you'll find these issues have also been discussed at length over here. Use the search function and you'll find plenty of threads on it (not to dissuade anyone from joining your other discussion, just pointing out that there are plenty of things already available).
I read through the last few pages of your thread and the most pertinent comment IMHO was this:
"Over-intellectualizing these matters doesn't seem to help in their performance. Perhaps because what we see in the videos is the result of a different intention than what occurs when one mimics those videos."
And I would add that that "intention" is just focus on the quality of sound. Sure it's an interesting discussion to see what is actually happening when someone plays, but if the purpose is to learn how to do it yourself, then the focus should be sound, not what the joints are doing. I mean, if it sounds right, you're not gonna change techniques because someone tells you that it looks like you're using this or that joint too much.
So then you experiment. Oh I got the right sound by focusing on the middle joint, then great, focus on that. What your fingers are actually doing is almost irrelevant. Hell, if focusing on your left butt cheek helps you get the right sound, then focus on that.
Anyways, my 2 cents.
edit: that was just a general comment on RH technique. If you have to factor in focal dystonia, then sure there are other things to consider.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 18:47:02

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitbox

The slow motion analysis of concert guitarists has helped me begin to play again after years with focal dystonia in my right hand. Perhaps it will help others as well.

Welcome and thanks for the link. Funny enough when you mentioned "slow motion analysis of concert guitarists" i thought you ment the slow motion studies those concert guitarists were doing themselves at home with their instrument, which might be different as the techniques they use on stage (when you play extremely slow for real it is a different thing as slowing down a quick action on video). I actually did a lot of slow motion analyses myself, not only by slowing down a recording but also by studying each phase of plugging slowly and separately for real. For various speeds i used various techniques and i also practiced things i won't do in actual playing but help to understand or trigger the actions or muscles i do need as a player. Studying all aspect in slow motion and great detail on my guitar helped me a lot. I trusted some of my personal exercises to the Foro (i call them macro or micro exercises) and got a personal mail once from someone thanking me for that because my approach was so different as his that it helped him to deal with his focal dystonia as well. One of the things recommended to people with focal dystonia is to completely change their technique and in a way start with a clean slate neuron wise so my different approach was quite useful in that sense. I gave him some of my excellent left hand macro exercises as well which were never revealed on the foro so far. One of the posters on that other foro used the term "passive extension" which i liked very much.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 18:49:32

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

Still got my mail response to the guy who told me my right hand exercises helped him to deal a bit more with his focal dystonia. So here it is, a foro premiere, a brief view on my left hand macro exercises (it all started by a tip given to me by a classical guitarist) :

Dear......

I'm sorry to hear about your problem but it's nice to hear my writings can contribute 1 way or the other. I never heart of focal dystonia before and it seems to be a fascinating subject. I have only communicated a limited amount of my micro studies yet. I know the full set completely changed my approach of how to use my body every single time i applied it and especially my right hand made a total carreer-change after applying those techniques over a 3 week period....

I'm planning to reveal some of my excellent left hand micro studies soon. To give you an idea: in the higher positions your strings run approximately 2 mm of the fretboard. To fret a note you first have to cover that distance. Most people pass that distance like it doesn't exist (that's why i call it the twilight zone) but you'll be amazed how much you can learn from that 2 mm that separates the untouched string from the fret. My left hand micro exercises use that twilight zone to study mind/body/nerve/energy control at micro level.

So in stead of pushing the string all the way to the fred, stop halfway and hold the string there as long as you can focus....feel, absorb and appreciate the energy exchange between the string and your finger....vary the input by wandering up and down in between that 2 mm twilight zone....you'll get incredible sense and control of your muscles/nerves/focus/energy input.

I made numerous variations on this theme:

* Put 1 finger on string and try to walk that 2 mm distance as slowly as possible without standing still...this demands incredible focus to doze the energy wile moving at an almost zero speed....once you touched the fret go back the same way.

* put all 4 fingers on the same string and press/hold the string halfway the twilight zone. Now lift 1 of the fingers wile the other fingers hold the string on air...........en put it back again.....
Also do this into the other direction so favor 1 finger to push the string a little further wile the others remain behind.....and restore contact again.

this increases focus on altering 1 finger microscopicly wile maintaining supervising control over the rest. You can do this using 1 string only or by dividing the fingers over various strings.

* one pretty demanding exercise is to hold the string halfway with 4 fingers on the same string and than lift finger 1 and 3 simultaneously wile the other 2 fingers stay behind to hold/control the string.....after a while restore contact with the string again and then lift finger 2 and 4 simultaneously. Lifting paired fingers is difficult enough as it is but it is pretty mind thrilling when you intend to do that "change of the guards" (replacing finger 1/3 by finger 2/4) in 1 fluent movement.... 4 fingers have to change function at the same time (2 from going down to holding the string and the 2 others from holding the string to going up). Obviously you can do the same in opposite direction (pushing the string a little further with 2 selected fingers simultaneously and changing fingering in 1 fluent movement).

You can make numerous exercises using this 2 mm twilight zone with various themes and levels of difficulty....your fantasy is the limit (i started with the tip to walk that 2 mm as slowly as possible and look were it got me....)

you can do the same things without holding the string halfway (just tip the string with your finger without adding pressure) or with the string half/fully fretted.

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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 19:29:43

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

I guaranty this thread is like nothing you have here. There's nowhere online that I've seen with so much compiled video evidence on right hand technique. I've done slow motion analysis of 100s of concert guitarist right hands and posted them under this "Slow Moe" youtube page. We discuss and have been arguing all the points you mention and more for 3 years. I've heard all the arguments for and against and wouldn't doubt if someone already suggested to pluck using the left butt cheek. :-)

Here's just one example:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 21:02:16

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 25 2017 0:40:22

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 21:32:17

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

I've heard all the arguments for and against and wouldn't doubt if someone already suggested to pluck using the left butt cheek. :-)

Well then you've understood that I'm one of those for whom it's a rather futile exercise. But everyone has their own path to learning and if watching and breaking down slow-mo movies works for you that's great. Thanks for sharing the link I'm sure some will find it useful. I tried using video to pick up falsetas or even full pieces here and there. But I'll admit I learn better with just audio. I'd go on and argue that there's a reason why the number of good guitarists hasn't gone through the roof with the arrival of the digital age and access to video and all kinds of software. To each his own, I suppose.
Regarding focal dystonia or any other ailment that might arise from playing the guitar, I've found that the best option was to go see a doctor with some specialisation in music. I had a physical therapist of that sort help with a few issues years ago (she actually had some decent instruments for her patients to play. I guess doctors make decent money!). When it comes to the body, always best to listen to a doctor than to a musician IMO.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 22:09:18

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

There is a dystonia thread here that is prolific- last I saw it was about two years ago, or perhaps more recent. The participants and the OP are many of the same who were in the concurrent DelCamp FD thread.

If you find the OP on the older DelCamp thread and then search that name here on the Foro you'll find the thread. Searching screen names seems to find threads much better than searching topics.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 22:44:38

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

Some will find it useful and others will not and then post endlessly about how it's a waste of time. I know, I've heard it all, it doesn't matter to me because if it helps someone else who was taught to play with the main knuckle joint (MCP) as the main thrust from going down the wrong path and possibly damaging their hand, it's worth it.

Thanks estebanana for the FD suggestion, I will look for that thread. I don't spend too much time with the FD forum crowd. Dystonia has become a new way for snake oil salesman to make a lot of money. If you don't believe me, just go to youtube and plug in dystonia and watch all the cures people are selling. The same is true of musicians dystonia, there's a lot of money to be made preying on people's desperation. I don't claim my thread or analysis will cure anyone else, but it can't hurt, and reading is totally free. Of course you have to practice a lot, duh.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2017 23:28:05

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

i wanted to become a marine biologist on the Calypso and for some reason or the other believed that playing the guitar was one of the jobs requirements

wait, what??
Now there's a story behind this I'm sure!

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 0:05:12

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitbox
I don't claim my thread or analysis will cure anyone else, but it can't hurt, and reading is totally free. Of course you have to practice a lot, duh.

Can't argue with that but as far as the practice part is concerned, there is practice and practice (smart studying beats mindless repeating and can sometimes do in seconds what otherwise would take hours to do but aside that there are no shortcuts).

Thanks again for the links, looks like interesting reading/studying material (as you noticed i joined your Slow Moe youtube page, wouldn't it be handy to standard name the guitarist involved ?).

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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 0:14:27

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

That page is for educational purposes only. I don't want to list names and have those musicians upset at me when someone searches for them on youtube and they get weird 30 second slow motion videos. You can guess the names by the initials, but really it's irrelevant, they are all well known performing concert guitarists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 0:46:28

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

I see, yes, that's a good argument. I noticed that you only use the "post reply" button on the bottom site of the page. If you want to react on a specific post or person it's better to use the "post reply" button embedded in the actual post you refer to (you can find that in the right upper corner of each individual post) so that persons name will pop up in the "in reply to.." on top of your reaction so anyone knows were your reaction refers to. You can embed quotes then as well if you like. If you use the bottom one it refers to the person on top of the page which is ok if it is a general comment although one problem of this foro is that if there is a second page it no longer adreses the OP but the first person on top of that new page).

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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 9:27:33

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Good tip, thanks. This forum layout is new to me, I'm used to the one at the delcamp classical guitar forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 12:52:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitbox

Some will find it useful and others will not and then post endlessly about how it's a waste of time. I know, I've heard it all, it doesn't matter to me because if it helps someone else who was taught to play with the main knuckle joint (MCP) as the main thrust from going down the wrong path and possibly damaging their hand, it's worth it.

Thanks estebanana for the FD suggestion, I will look for that thread. I don't spend too much time with the FD forum crowd. Dystonia has become a new way for snake oil salesman to make a lot of money. If you don't believe me, just go to youtube and plug in dystonia and watch all the cures people are selling. The same is true of musicians dystonia, there's a lot of money to be made preying on people's desperation. I don't claim my thread or analysis will cure anyone else, but it can't hurt, and reading is totally free. Of course you have to practice a lot, duh.

I glanced over your link, which I feel was off topic to focal dystonia. But in regards to your claim based on the eveidence you are seeing in the slow video, let me say that you are correct in certain observations (collapsing tip joint, Ruben Diaz got it wrong etc Lol), but once again falling into the trap of the MIDDLE KNUCKLES role in driving the stroke is an old arguement and you are simply not correct about it. But there are other threads on that topic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2017 17:50:04

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to Ricardo)

I never said the middle knuckle (proximal interphalangeal joint or PIP) was "driving the stroke", I'm sorry, but you are misinterpreting what I said. I said the middle joint is responsible for releasing the string and depending on whether we're talking about a free stroke or a rest stroke, the amount of tip joint collapse has an affect on the amount of tip joint flexion that occurs as well. The tip, once fully collapsed, can also add to the release of the string in the form of flexion. Of course the power of the main knuckle joint (metacarpo phalangeal joint or MCP) is hugely important. It's important in classical guitar, but clearly we can see flamenco players use it to a large extent in picado. But that pre-pluck force (no matter how strong it is) is not the thing that releases the string. If you put up a waveform visual representation of the sound of notes being plucked and synced it with video, the largest amplitude on the waveform would be exactly in line with the middle/tip flexion and the large knuckle is changing directions at that moment. For arpeggio playing the middle joint is even more active and the plucking from the MCP actually has a component of pulling upward (MCP is extending during the release)

I've encounter many concert guitarists who say they play one way with the fingers and the video evidence shows they don't really know what their fingers are doing exactly. They feel the knuckle joint as pushing through the string at the moment the string is sounded, but what I believe they are really feeling is the knuckle relaxing. It may be different for some flamenco players who play a really hard rest stroke, but not all.

Look, we can continue this alpha male, crap flinging stuff if you want. You can tell me I'm wrong and off topic and tell me how this has already been talked about, and I can give you a rebuttal to your argument, but why not try another collaborative approach to this argument? I've watched your videos and you are an amazing flamenco guitarist, I have huge respect for your abilities. I'm interested in flamenco, but I'm more of a classical guitarist and I am recovering from dystonia so my playing is not consistent and not of the quality to be worth posting videos. Since a picture paints a thousand words, then a video must paint 10,000 words, why not post a closeup video of your hand so we can see for ourselves and slow it down and analyze what the joints are doing in slow motion? If you could post a short clip from just a foot away that is of the side of the hand and demonstrate picado, arpeggios, alternation free strokes, tremolo., I'm sure this would spark some very interesting conversation and help a lot of struggling guitarists. If, for some reason what we see in the video is different than what you say you are doing, then you'll be able to directly explain why seeing is not believing.

What do you say Ricardo, would you be willing to help out this discussion and post a video like this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2017 13:42:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

Yes when get a free moment I will upload something.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2017 14:40:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to guitbox)

In case you missed it in the other thread, since you asked for it:

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2017 21:20:24

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: RH Technique | Focal Dystonia | ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Thank you very much for posting this video Ricardo. I appreciate it very much. I commented on the other thread, but I will look at it several times and give what you say some serious thought.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2017 19:38:09