Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: What is it about a negra?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
|
 RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
|
|
|
Hello Guys,
Thanks for the explanations of "Coral".
Ahhh yes, wood...
The late John Gilbert, classical maker in Woodside CA---SF Bay Area---was noted for consistency. You ordered a Gilbert, you got a Gilbert, and no mistake.
Shortly after I resumed guitar making in 1993, John spoke to our luthier group NCAL about his methods. He tested his top wood for stiffness and density, and used only tops that came within his acceptable range. I had just finished up a guitar that had turned out very well indeed---everybody wanted one---and I didn't know what I had done right.
I have a hodge-podge technical background, and John's wood testing seemed like a good idea. I did a bit of reading to find out what luthiers had done in the way of wood testing, and decided to begin testing for density, long and cross grain stiffness, and "Q". The Q test is a way of putting a number on how long the tap tone lasts.
I was amazed at the variation! Factors of three, four, and five were common. In testing Sitka tops from the same section of a Sitka log, I found one top that was NINE times stiffer across the grain than another one!
The quality of the re-saw job is important here. I've rejected 30 year old Euro-spruce tops that were well quartered half way, and then the end grain lines became up to 10 degrees off quarter. The cross grain stiffness dropped to a low level as a result.
So I've been testing tops, backs, bridges and now even fingerboards for over 20 years. The one thing I will say for sure is that "wood varies", and dramatically!
I don't see a way to attach a .pdf of the wood testing notes that I give to my students., so email me and I'll forward it to you.
brian@lessonsinlutherie.com
Cheers,
Brian
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2017 16:00:06
 |
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
|
|
|
quote:
So, what do you look for in a negra that you don't find in a blanca?
Nothing. Frankly, for flamenco I much prefer blancas over negras. In 2007, for some reason, I thought I would like a negra and contacted Vicente Carrillo directly to make me a flamenco with Madagascar Rosewood back and sides. It was a beautiful guitar and had a nice sound. But it did not have the attack and punch of a good blanca. I sold it and now own three blancas, including a Gerundino and a Manuel Adalid, as well as my original Sanchis.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 14 2017 23:08:13
|
|
NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
|
|
RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
|
|
|
Hello William,
Well, I am of two minds now that I've been playing this East Indian and Euro-spruce negra for a month or so. I've always played and preferred blancas, and I certainly like working with our local Mendocino cypress---just finished a classical out of it. The negra is a different breed of cat, that's for sure, but I keep being inspired to improvise on it. It's my #23, and you can hear it on my clunky and unfinished website at this link:
http://brianburnsguitars.com/my-guitars
I spend a lot of time and energy working to get consistency in my guitars, and they certainly are similar. But, being made from a natural material like wood, there is a fair amount of variation. The Euro-spruce soundboard on this particular negra had the best test numbers that I have encountered in testing over 200 top sets. Its response is strong over the whole range. So I wouldn't dismiss negras as a category without trying a few different ones.
I'm going to try an "ultralight negra" using some low density Italian spruce, and a lower density Indian rosewood set of back and sides, to see if that will tend more to the blanca end of the spectrum.
Cheers,
Brian
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 14 2017 23:47:22
|
|
hhmusic
Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006
|
|
RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
|
|
|
quote:
I'm going to try an "ultralight negra" using some low density Italian spruce, and a lower density Indian rosewood set of back and sides, to see if that will tend more to the blanca end of the spectrum.
Well, having built exactly zero guitars, but having played many dozens, from dozens of makers, my impressions are that:
Rosewood is heavier, stiffer and more resonant, and a guitar made from it has a stiffer feel under the right hand in particular, a longer sustain, a boomier voice, and as Andy mentioned, more bass and high treble and less in the middle. I agree with Stephen: I don't like it.
Of the many Indian rosewood negras I've played, there were only 2 I actually liked -- and I bought them. Yes, I'm finally getting to my point...
They're both quite a bit lighter than most negras. Closer to but not quite like a cypress guitar, with just a bit more robustness, which I do like.
SO, I would think if you went for an ultralight, or at least lighter weight, negra, that would yield a more 'flamenco' guitar. That would be my vote.
Side note: On the Janka chart it appears that EIR is harder than BRW. I have played more BRW negras that I liked than EIR negras, in fact have come to the conclusion that EIR usually doesn't make a good flamenco. Maybe the hardness also affects the sound negatively.
Other side note: I think walnut has promise. Lighter weight, easy to work, beautiful, appropriate color for a negra, available in great quality for reasonable prices, and comes from right here in the USA. I've heard eastern black walnut is better than California / claro, again because it's lighter.
Anyway, that's my free advice -- it may be worth what you paid for it!
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 24 2017 8:06:30
|
|
NorCalluthier
Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
|
|
RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier)
|
|
|
Hello Harry and Ethan,
I agree that the lower density rosewoods are going to get closer to the sound of a cypress guitar. But, I'm fond of saying "When it comes to wood, all generalizations are false".
Density, cross and long grain stiffness, and duration of tap-tone ("Q") are all independent of each other. The only ones that track each other at all are density and long grain stiffness, and they only do that about 30% of the time.
I need to keep emphasizing that all that matters to me is what the player says. I came to guitar making as a flamenco player and teacher, and though I use an engineering approach---or reverse engineering---I'm after the thrill of playing a really good instrument. So far, my wood testing and voicing seems to be helping to produce that.
I have a lot of respect for builders that use the traditional methods and make good guitars. I came under the influence of a bunch of engineers and physicists---mostly musicians BTW---at a tender age, and I just see the problem of building really good instruments from that point of view.
Cheers,
Brian
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 24 2017 15:28:23
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
9.399414E-02 secs.
|
Printable Version
